We all have experienced those states where our mind goes off on a tangent, spins out of control, sturs up our emotions and then a few moments and sometimes a few days later we awaken from the fog and see the situation more clearly.
Debra Maldonado talks about ‘animus’ in a woman as defined by Jungian Psychology, how it affects women’s thought processes, and how we as women can integrate our emotions into having empowered relationships.
The anima and animus are described in Carl Jung’s school of analytical psychology as part of his theory of the collective unconscious. Jung described the animus as the unconscious masculine side of a woman, and the anima as the unconscious feminine side of a man, with each transcending the personal psyche.
Have you ever awoken during sleep and realized that you were still dreaming? This is what is called Lucid Dreaming and almost everyone has at least one experience of this level of dreaming during their lifetime. Some people lucid dream frequently and others randomly throughout their life. In this episode, we explore the power of lucid dreaming and what it means to change your life.
This episode was filmed on video, if you want to see the video version you can click here and see us in action. We discuss:
What is lucid dreaming?
How can you create lucidity in a dream?
Techniques to prepare your mind to have a lucid dream
How lucid dreaming can show you how the mind works and reach higher levels of consciousness
Debi: Welcome to the Debi & Dr. Rob Show. This is Debi and I’m with Dr. Rob.
Rob: Nice to be here.
Debi: We are actually on video. It’s our first edition of our podcast on video, so if you are listening to this podcast on the audio version, we’d love for you to come visit us on YouTube and you can see this episode and more to come on video as well. Let’s talk about today’s topic which is, I know, one of your favorite topics.
Rob: One of my favorite all time topics is lucid dreaming.
Debi: Why do you love lucid dreaming?
Rob: Well, I love dreaming in general. I love talking about dreams but lucid dreaming is a special case of dreams. It’s a special category of dream-work. Now, the basic definition and most of you have probably have had a lucid dream in your life. You might not remember it, or you might have though it was something else, like an out of body experience or something, but it’s essentially when you wake up in the dream, meaning you have this awareness, this consciousness, but you’re still caught up in the dream. You’re still in the dreamscape in a sense.
Debi: A lot of people might have that just when they wake up. Sometimes they’ll have that experience and, of course, everyone knows that movie Inception with Leonardo DiCaprio where he says, “I’m having a dream within a dream,” and basically they were using lucid dreaming. Of course it’s not scientific, the dream, it’s a ciphered movie but it gives you this idea that your body is asleep but you are awake inside a dreamscape and you are conscious. Which is a really fascinating concept for [crosstalk].
Rob: Just to be clear, it’s not cipher anymore. Back in the ’70s or ’80s, in the ’80s, people started studying it seriously and they found out this is an actual phenomenon. Everyone has the capacity, the capability to do lucid dreaming if they just learn a few simple techniques.
Debi: We are going to talk about that on the show too. Why would we use them? What’s the benefit of lucid dreaming?
Rob: That’s a good question. In general, if you think about why do we need dreams to begin with, why would nature force us to fall asleep and then have this 3D hallucination that takes us to other places and other situations and essentially nobody knows. There are some good theories. It does appear to have to do with good memory function, good logic, good reasoning, basically the brain needs it to survive, and to thrive and to be able to function properly, just general dreams. Why would lucid dreaming be part of dreams? It seems to be more on the spiritual mystical side.
Debi: I remember I’ve had a few lucid dreams, and I remember the next day feeling euphoric when I have them. It’s like this lightness, this joy as is if I just went too strong and cleansed my mind. I don’t know what it was. I wonder is it just because you are so aware? What’s that euphoric feeling?
Rob: I think it’s just a breakthrough in our consciousness that we realize well, there is this whole other level of reality in our mind, or our mind has all this power and this capability to really explore the world of consciousness, of dreams, in a different way. That realization just fills us with happiness and joy because it is such an incredible thing. Think about it, imagine having this wakeful consciousness but then stepping outside the door and flying up [crosstalk], and it feels like you are awake and you are flying or you’re doing all these incredible things but your body is fast asleep in your bed.
Debi: Sometimes when you were kids, a lot of children talk about dreams of flying or dreams of remembering that they could fly in their dreams, so we had a lot more experiences when we were younger but I remember, just so people can know what is a lucid dream, what does it feel like, I think it was when we first met, you weren’t there, and I woke up and I got out of bed and I walked down the stairs, and I saw my roommate, she was sleeping on the couch for some reason. It was like a balcony you can overlook, and I went to put my hand on the rail, my hand went right through the rail and I realized I was dreaming and I just was walking around and then I went back to sleep.
The next day she had woken up, she didn’t normally sleep there, so I’m like, “Okay, I knew I must have done something and maybe that was more out of body experience, but I felt like I was awake and I was just walking around in the house and I it was just this kind of sensation of, “That’s interesting. I must be dreaming because my hand was going through the rail.”
I was floating and I just remember the next day thinking, “Oh my God, I just feel so happy today and so alive.” It was just this amazing experience and I think it’s what you said, maybe it’s because you have experienced another realm of your own consciousness that you haven’t experienced before.
Rob: People who have not experienced a lucid dream, I know what you’re thinking, you’re probably saying, “Well, it’s just your imagination,” or “just a very intense dream,” but it’s not that. Like I said, this is well documented and it’s a psychological phenomenon that anyone can access. Now, having said that, there is a caveat, we do not want to use lucid dreams just for fun games.
Debi: Which a lot of those retreats where people go and do lucid dreams and it’s more just to leave your body and play around.
Rob: It’s to say, “Look at me I’m so wonderful, I can do this lucid dreaming thing.” In reality, it is a gift that’s given to us, human beings, this incredible– I think it’s more like a spiritual imagination that is given to us in order for us to cultivate our spiritual life in a very direct way and so always consider, “How can I use it to become a better person instead, to increase my awareness, my capacity for compassion, for love, for connectedness?”
Debi: Well, I think one of the things that lucid dreaming the benefits could be is that when you wake up in a dream and then you can direct that dream, you are actually building a muscle of your consciousness to be able in your waking life to say, let me bend this reality as well and so we start to see, for me it’s like the dream world and the waking world become the same material and so you’re not thinking, “Oh, that’s the magical part and there’s no rules there but here there are rules and everything solid.”
I think it just comes from a place of, if you come from the ego and you’re attached to the magic, you’re not going to really get the benefit from it but if you come from a place of individuation where you’re seeing these dreams or these experiences as a way to show how your mind works and how consciousness works, I think this is a great, great tool. The people are listening going, “How can I have a lucid dream? How can I do this? How can I learn how to do this?” What would you say?
Rob: There are techniques, we can talk about one in specific that we think is very safe, very natural.
Debi: No electrodes and lights going on your eyes, a lot of people use electronics or drugs to [crosstalk].
Rob: Nothing like that. There is a precedence for this in a whole discipline in Tibet Buddhism it’s called dream yoga. Dream yoga is using lucid dreams for spiritual development in essence. It doesn’t mean that you’re doing asanas in your dream although you could, I guess.
Debi: The downward dog [laughs].
Rob: Yoga is used more as a discipline of the mind. How can we discipline the mind through lucid dreaming? That’s the way we want to approach lucid dreaming, as a disciplining of the mind to cultivate it’s consciousness, it’s levels of awareness. One of the basic techniques is that while you’re awake, in this ordinary waking world, look at you hands and ask yourself, “Am I dreaming?”
Debi: “Am I dreaming? Am I dreaming? Am I dreaming?” You could do this right now at home.
Debi: “Am I dreaming?”
Rob: Don’t do it at work because you might get fired or something.
Debi: You can think it.
Rob: [laughs] Some people also, when they look at their watch, they make it a practice to ask, “Am I dreaming?” What they do is, they look at the watch, they look away and then look back at it. If it’s still the same, you know you’re in this waking state. If it has changed, then you might suspect you’re dreaming.
Debi: I know, because when you’re dreaming, you don’t know you’re dreaming. The reason why we have these techniques is that we start to wake up from them. I remember, before you told me about this technique, I remember having a lucid dream where I was flying through space, very crescent dream. I think you were on your way to around this planet, and I was looking at my hands going up and I’m like, “Oh.” I noticed the little freckles on my fingers and I was like, “Okay, I’m dreaming.” Because I could see my hands. When you told me that this technique I said, “That’s why I did that in that dream, I could see my hands,” so a part of me must have known about that.
I really like that one. One thing that I discovered myself is when I do visualizations, one thing I’ve realized is that, in visualizations, I’m always seeing throughout my own eyes and I’m seeing forward. I’m never looking behind me, so I’m seeing in that one direction. That’s basically how we are like, we don’t turn around all the time. We’re focused maybe on this very limited scope. What I started to do in my visualization is I would be in this place, and then I would be like, “What’s behind me?” and I would turn around and see the 360. I would just practice seeing the whole gamut of the experience.
I remember, when I started to do that every day, I think the seventh day, I woke up in a dream and I spun myself around in the dream and I said, “Oh my god I’m awake.” I was so excited and I was trying to make this tree grow and created a house and I was in this very grey, there was nothing there. It was like a virtual reality almost. It was very bizarre, but I remember thinking, “It was me practicing that.” When I was in the dream, I started turning around and then I realized I was awake. That’s another– my suggestion that I’ve discovered that really helps.
Again, we’re not getting attached to, “I have to have a lucid dream and it’s so great.” When we do, we start to see how powerful our mind is. Then if you can direct your dream, imagine what you can do in a waking world. Imagine waking up in life because most of our lives, we’re sleep-walking basically where our unconscious is doing all, we’re going through the motions with getting ready in the morning and eating, and we just go through our day at work and driving. We’re really in this fog of a dreamlike state and very, very infrequently are we wide awake. Do you think mindfulness would also be–?
Rob: Yes, definitely. Mindfulness is being aware in the immediate moment and focusing on what you’re doing in the moment and in real time. Meditation, we know helps. Visualization helps. Good sleep hygiene, which means you don’t–
Debi: Take a shower before you go to bed.
Rob: Don’t drink a lot of stimulants, coffee or sodas, a lot of sugar before you go to sleep. Certain rituals like taking a shower or meditating, relaxing before you go to sleep, all those things, we know increase the likelihood of having a lucid dream.
Debi: We could also mention to our clients is to set the intention that you’re going to have a lucid dream. Before you go to bed, you could do this with dreaming in general. Just say, “I’m going to remember my dreams.” And you’re setting that intention as you drift off. You can also set the intention, “I’m going to have a lucid dream.” The mind is so powerful, you could even say, “I’m going to wake up at seven o’clock,” and you will wake up at 7:00 AM that morning. Your mind will take orders from you.
Rob: The basic theory is this, like you said, when we are in a dream, we don’t know we’re dreaming most of the time. When strange things happen, we want to get into the habit of questioning that, “Am I dreaming?” You’re walking down main street in your town and all of a sudden you see a giraffe walking by, you can ask yourself-
Debi: Am I dreaming?
Rob: “Is this a dream?” or something. “This is strange. This is something unusual.” Those techniques, within the dream, will help you then wake up. Not wake up physically in the bed but wake up within the dream and become lucid.
Debi: Saying, “Am I dreaming?” throughout the day, looking at your watch throughout the day, “Am I dreaming?” look away, look at the time, and then being more mindful. Before you go to sleep at night, don’t have any stimulants, don’t eat lots of sugar, ice cream, take a shower, do some meditation, visualize before you go to sleep, set an intention to remember your dreams or to have a lucid dream. Those are all the recipe for having those wonderful mystical experiences. Be sure to write your dreams down, that’s one thing that’s really important. Even if you don’t know what the dream means.
Young said that if you write them down, and just read them, your psyche is going to transform because there’s a deeper part of yourself that knows what it means. From your dream life, you’re bringing it into the physical world and your higher consciousness. That’s what the dream is supposed to– It’s like taking stuff that you don’t know unconsciously to bring it forward. If you bring it forward on paper and pen, it’s a ritual for you to put it into the physical world and use it.
Rob: That’s a whole other aspect of dream working and lucid dreaming that now people are starting to use it for therapeutic purposes. Let’s say somebody has a phobia in real life or in waking life, you can use a lucid dream to confront that fear and practice. Let’s say, you’re afraid of heights, in the lucid dream, being consciously aware that you are within the dream, you’re not as fearful because you know that, “I can always wake up,” or “I can fly if I fall off the high building,” or something, then you can practice overcoming that fear in a gradual and a safe environment that’s created in your mind.
All those possibilities are just the tip of the iceberg. This whole area of how can we use lucid dreaming to improve ourselves, to become more conscious, more spiritual, more aware is just stunning. We want to do, in the future, maybe some workshops, maybe some–
Debi: We’re having a dream archetypal retreat next year in Athens, Greece, where we’re going to take a trip to the ruins, we’ll see the Parthenon, we’re going to look at all the amazing– Why are you smiling?
Rob: Oh, god no [crosstalk]
Debi: We’re going to see the ruins and talk about the archetypes and all the gods, the Greek gods, and see the archetypes within them and then perhaps a lot of dream experiences and meditative experiences. If you’re interested in joining us in Athens, in October of 2019, we’re going to be doing that as well. We also deal with dreams in any of our events, our live events here in the US and Europe.
I think dreams, to me, are [unintelligible 00:18:24] say they’re the royal road to the unconscious. I think dreams to me are the direct experience of your spiritual life. I have had ideas of what being spiritual is and what I believe is unknown and unseen and faith in the divine. Working with dreams, especially with lucid dreams, you really get to see what your consciousness is made of. It’s a beautiful practice. The more you can do it, the more you’re going to be enlightened and be aware of everything around you and your power that you have to really direct your life. Again, if you can direct the dream, you can direct your life.
That’s it for today. This is such a great topic. I’m glad you decided that you would bring it up. [laughs] Remember to tune in to the rest of our shows on iTunes and on Google Play and Spotify now. We just can’t wait to see you on the next episode. This is Debi and Rob, signing out.
If you are a business owner or entrepreneur or even jockeying for your next promotion, you know the value of mastering sales. Unfortunately, many of the sales training systems available are developed by men and do not naturally fit a woman’s style. In this episode, Rob interviews Debi about her experience in sales and how …
What is the law of attraction and is science replacing spirituality?
Have you heard of the Law of Attraction?
Maybe you tried to think positive or put together a vision board and wondered does this really work? In this episode, we explain the science behind what some people call the spiritual or universal laws and how you can apply them in your life. 53: Is the Law of Attraction – Science or Spirituality? Debi tells her story about getting the DVD, “The Secret” and how she realized she already knew this secret. Now fifteen years later everyone jumped on the law of attraction bandwagon and there are many different people teaching this content. Rob talks about the language of the law of attraction and how it comes from the New Thought movement in the early 1900’s. We discuss whether these spiritual ideas are outdated because now we understand science. We have a natural curiosity to learn about ourselves and we still have to answer the big questions including spiritual needs.
If you love to hear about science (neuroscience and quantum physics) and how spirituality fit together, you will fully enjoy this episode. Understand what is spirituality? Spirituality is not a belief, that is religion. We explain the law of karma and other spiritual ideas.
If you want to explore more, check out our new POWER OF THE GITA program that starts this month!
Debi: Episode number 53, Debi and Dr. Rob Show. This show is about that Law of Attraction that everyone talks about. Is it science or spirituality or a mixture of both? We’re going to clear the air and give you some insight on how to use those spiritual laws in a very powerful way to create the life you really want, so stay tuned. This is the Debi and Dr. Rob Show. You are in the right place if you are tired of the basic self-help and you’re ready for a higher level of teaching in neuroscience, Jungian psychology and Eastern wisdom. We offer world-class personal development and coach training for evolving women entrepreneurs to help you go to the next level of growth in success, relationships, and living your purpose, so let’s get started. Dr. Rob, episode number 53. They say it couldn’t be done.
Dr. Rob: A long time coming and it’s finally here. We’re going to talk about the Law of Attraction.
Debi: Yes, a lot of people have asked us that, but before we begin today’s show, I wanted to just mention that if you find our podcast and the content interesting, intriguing, mind-expanding, and you think, “I would really like to learn this at a deeper level. I’d like to train in this process so that I can help others,” either add to your own coaching business or become a coach, we have good news. We have just a few spots left for our fall class for the certification of Jungian spiritual life coaches and the application deadline is October 6th. If you do not apply by October 6th, you’re going to have to wait until next year for our next class.
This is really important. If you have been thinking about doing this program and been putting it off and saying, “I’m going to wait until next year, I’m going to wait until next year,” this is the very last class that we will have as much personal coaching with Rob, because our business is expanding, because our time is limited, we are not going to as many private coaching sessions with Rob in our next class, so if you want to have the full experience of private mentorship with Rob, this is it. Of course, it’s going to be available, but it’ll be almost double what we’re charging this year. Believe me, if you can find a way, make it happen, because this is a really great deal and the last time you’ll get to have that deep connection with Rob all through the program at the price point that we have.
Dr. Rob: Yes. If you’re interested at all, sign up. At least get on a call with us and ask us about the possibility of becoming a coach.
Debi: Yes, just get a free consultation with me. All you need to do is fill out the form. You can go to jungianlifecoach.com and it’ll take you to our page about the coaching program and it starts in– It started already, but you can jump in now. The live event is in October, we have another one in March. You can jump in on this class before it gets along too far and be a part of this amazing journey. Some of our coaches already that have started have seen, even just joining the program, some amazing changes in their life already and they’re really excited for the journey and you’re going to be in the company of a great mind.
Dr. Rob: Yes, that’s an added bonus is that you get to be part of this incredible group.
Debi: If you’re enjoying this deep conversation we have in our podcast and want to be more involved and teach this to other people, help other people live bigger lives, apply today at jugianlifecoach.com. Okay, Rob, let’s get down to business, the Law of Attraction. I remember when a friend of mine, she was a client actually, she said, “Have you seen the movie The Secret?” I had done hypnotherapy and I learned this stuff a long time ago and I was like, “The Secret, oh my God, [chuckles] I’m missing out on something that I don’t know,” and I couldn’t wait. Back then you couldn’t see it online, so I had to send for the DVD and I was all excited when I got it, I couldn’t wait to put in my DVD player, that’s how long ago that movie came out.
I put it in and then they were talking about this secret, they were talking about this secret, and then all of a sudden they go, “The secret is the Law of Attraction,” and my whole body just went, “I know this already. [chuckles] This isn’t a secret.” But it’s so amazing after just understanding, that movie actually set off so many careers in self-help, personal development. The internet was just starting to become popular, so everyone jumped on the bandwagon of the Law of Attraction, there was a lot of attraction workshops and vision board workshops and everyone’s talking about visualization. One of my clients was so cute, he said, “Debi, all this stuff we’ve been working on the past year, now everyone’s going to find out about it. [chuckles] Everyone’s going to know that your thoughts [unintelligible 00:05:20] your life.” He was so worried and I’m like, “There’s plenty of abundance, don’t worry.”
Dr. Rob: That was the whole idea.
Debi: I know, but it was so funny. I was like, “The secret’s out now.”
Dr. Rob: Yes. A lot of people don’t know that that whole language of the Law of Attraction comes from a movement that, I guess, started in the early 1900 and it’s called New Thought. The New Thought schools and philosophers at that time in America were very much influenced by the Eastern gurus that were coming over at that time. There was a few. Vivekananda was coming over and then later Yogananda.
Debi: Also, Think and Grow Rich came out like in the 1920s, and Wallace Wattles wrote The Science of Getting Rich back then. There were a lot of those books that came out and teachers that started talking about potential and your mind.
Dr. Rob: Yes, an interesting history that really hasn’t been written about that much or hasn’t been popularized, but the way it reached the current age was through those ideas of New Thought and they were infused with the religious spirituality ideas, of course.
Debi: Yes, a lot of them are very Christian-based if you think about it. They quote Jesus and they quote Bible verses, so a lot of the Christian model was taken into account there.
Dr. Rob: Yes. I think in our current age, one of the big questions is do we need spirituality given that we have neuroscience now and physics and all this incredible scientific advances. Now we’re getting into artificial intelligence and robots are about to explode onto the scene, so do we need the Law of Attraction and other spiritual ideas to–
Debi: Are they outdated now because we have science?
Dr. Rob: Yes. Us as Jungians or people that study Jung, let’s say students of Jung– Jung’s idea, and he was working around the same time really, because he started in the early 1900s as well, his main idea was that it doesn’t matter how advanced we get technologically, our nature, our curiosity about life, about ourselves, those big questions that we have, they’re not going to go away just because we have a technology and we have computers and we have the Google and artificial intelligence. We still have to answer those big questions for ourselves. He says, “Your spiritual needs are not going to go away just because you have technology and science.” Because, first of all, science is not meant to answer those big questions. Science is really a way of looking at what are my senses telling me and how can I verify if that’s true and if other people are seeing the same thing as I am.
Debi: A lot of psychology is based on science, where it’s behaviorism and testing and research-
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: -and what the evidence, like you said, of the senses, of witnesses, of experience tell us.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: It’s very material. It’s very physical. It’s very external.
Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s upfront on those things. It’s as we’re assuming there is a physical reality, first of all, so it’s making a big assumption and then it’s following through on that. It’s called empiricism. Empiricism simply means, “What can I see, what can I touch, what can I weigh and measure, and I’m going by that.” So, it wasn’t meant to replace spirituality.
Debi: Because spirituality is all about the unseen.
Dr. Rob: Exactly, and even the people that invented science, like Newton, most of the writings were about alchemy and very mystical things.
Debi: But, then, they took only the little piece.
Dr. Rob: Yes. I think there’s errors on both sides. The people that say, “Oh, because we have science now, we have a way of verifying things. You don’t need the–”
Debi: Religion is dead, especially.
Dr. Rob: Yes, or spirituality is superstition and old school. That’s wrong because it wasn’t meant to replace the deeper need and those bigger questions that we have. To replace it with scientific fact, man, you’re giving up the richness of being alive–
Debi: And being human, that’s– There’s things that you can’t put in words too.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: These mystical experiences that we can have that are way beyond just measurements of tools.
Dr. Rob: Yes. Then, you hear people like Dawkins and the selfish gene guy, putting down the religious people because they think, “Oh, they’re being silly or childish or superstitious.” But it’s really that they’re setting up a straw bad guy and saying, “The fundamentalists are the ones that represent religion and spirituality, and us scientists are so enlightened.”
Debi: We’ve based everything on facts and, like you said, empirical evidence.
Dr. Rob: Yes, but that’s a false argument because that’s not spirituality, that’s just a cultural manifestation, people that believe or follow certain rituals. Now, let me just finish this thought. On the other side, people that think, “Science sucks, technology sucks, let’s get back to nature and spirituality,” there is something to that, in that we need to take care of nature and the planet. It’s our home and we can’t live without it, but you can’t turn back science, you can’t turn back what we already know about technology and what we’ve created. You have to come to terms with it, you have to learn how to use it in a creative way. Both ends of the spectrum, I think, are off.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: Well, what I wanted to say was that I know there’s a lot- when we used to do a lot of work with love, there was a lot out there about hormones and about your brain and it triggers your brain. Helen Fisher did a lot of research on what your brain does when it’s in love, and attachment theory and all those things. Those are great, but it takes the romantic version of what love is about and the romantic version of what spirituality can be about. What really gives our life richness and meaning that’s far beyond just evidence is a beautiful thing, so what we want to do is bridge both the spirituality and science together. How do we do that? Another thing I’d like to talk about is, what is spirituality? Think about it. Is it a religion? Is it organized religion? There’s people that say, “I’m spiritual, but not religious.” [chuckles] What does that mean?
Dr. Rob: Right. It’s unfortunate that, let’s say, spirituality has become synonymous with belief. People say, “Do you believe this?” According to your beliefs, you’re categorized as Buddhist or Christian or Muslim or something. Now, the belief thing, really it’s more of a cultural expression. It means you bought into a certain idea of how the universe works and what happens to you after you die and those things. Those beliefs really go back to your culture, your experiences, what made sense to you as you were growing up and what you bought into and why you rejected, all those things. That’s not really what we mean by spirituality. Belief is not spirituality. Belief is simply part of your ego makeup that has helped you define yourself.
Debi: Personal conditioning. Basically, we’re conditioned to believe things are a certain way. We’re conditioned to believe and fear God or praise God or reject God, whatever we are– That’s our belief and that actually comes from, like you said, our social conditioning. Then, this idea of the law, like there’s spiritual laws or the laws of karma, for example. They come from, again, what is your perception? You had mentioned when we were talking earlier today about karma, a lot of people think it’s good and bad. Good karma and bad karma. This social system has turned into their own understanding, but karma is not about good and bad, it’s just cause and effect.
Dr. Rob: Just cause and effect.
Debi: Just, only, just the mind.
Dr. Rob: Really, karma is simply the sum total of your actions and thoughts and ideas that you’ve expressed in your lifetime and how that has conditioned you into what you are today.
Debi: Created like an ego that carries all that conditioning.
Dr. Rob: Absolutely. The sum total of who you are right now is your karma, basically. That’s what is meant by karma. The good and bad, I think, was part of– In the West, we were used to thinking of sin and redemption, that you’re going to get punished for your sins and you need to redeem yourself somehow by good works. It’s that idea superimposed on this more ancient idea of karma.
Debi: When we think about the Law of Attraction and we think about this conversation we’re having about religion, actually this New Thought became a religion. Then, what happened is that people didn’t tease out their own person experience with their own Christianity or their own religion that they have, and they were trying to use this other– Basically, it’s taking two religions and putting them together and trying to make a sense of it. I think there’s a lot of people that got lost in it. Then it becomes, like you said, a belief system, and it’s not really the truth.
Dr. Rob: Right. You have said also earlier that people have been using or trying to use these spiritual principles to obtain something.
Debi: Yes. It’s like, “Get the car.” That’s what was the biggest criticism about the secret is that people said, “Oh, that’s all good and fine, but it’s all about getting fancy cars and jewelry and finding a person, and very little about peace of mind.” I remember when I got caught up in it. I started my first hypnotherapy practice. I needed to make money. I was taking those spiritual laws and applying them like, “Oh, I got to visualize and manifest.” I had my money angel and using that to get material things, but then what happened is that it was never enough.
No matter how much money you make or how much success you get, it’s never enough because you’re really just creating from a materialistic place. When the money comes in, then I’ll feel good, but it’s basically using spirituality, it sounds like blasphemy. You’re using the spiritual wisdom to create material things and it’s not the point that was initially created by the Buddhists and the yogis. It’s not about acquiring material well.
Now, of course, there’s the other side, which is the spiritual people that say, “Oh, reject wealth and reject things in the world. You shouldn’t worry about love. You should just be spiritual.” Both sides, again, the extreme of science and spirituality, you also want to make sure there’s a balance there too. I think it’s going deeper in understanding, number one, who’s the one that’s creating and using these principles, and what are the principles that we should be using, and how should we look at the world. [chuckles] Just a couple of quick questions.
Dr. Rob: Recently, we were doing an interview with somebody. It was so funny because they were saying, “I’m glad you guys didn’t talk about abundance.” The way a lot of people are talking about abundance now that, “Okay, just write a $1 million check and put it in your wallet. That’s going to give you abundance somehow.” We’ve certainly grown beyond that. What has helped us understand this is what we call Jungian spiritual psychology. What is Jungian spiritual psychology? It is essentially looking at this need to understand ourselves and our deeper selves beyond the ego, beyond the persona, and to answer some of these questions that are naturally in us.
You talk to a kid and they have the right questions is, “What am I doing here? Who am I? Why is the sky blue?” Like, “What is the nature of myself and what is the nature of the world?” That’s essentially what they’re asking. That’s philosophy. Jung had this idea that if you can’t get rid of those big questions and you shouldn’t try to because it fulfills our roles as human beings, we need to understand them, not reject anything that we can’t see or measure or weigh, like the physical scientist says, but consider that as human beings, there’s more to us than our bodies and more to us than just our individual experience.
Debi: I was thinking too that if you take the Law of Attraction and say, “I’m going to create wealth,” and then you actually create wealth because it works– There’s a law, If you think positive, you’ll get stuff [chuckles] usually. It will show up for you, but you’re bringing with it all the fears around not having it. If you’re an ego, what will happen is the things you do create with this law of attraction will end up inflating your ego. We’ve seen this happen with a lot of people that have had real great success teaching the Law of Attraction, and they crashed, because they believed they were the creator, like their ego was the creator and not the divine. Basically, they ended up having the feeling they had superpowers, but their ego was taking credit for it. They hadn’t done the work understanding who they really are on a deep level and they just rushed ahead.
I always caution people that when you’re using those spiritual laws, you have to understand that you’re not the ego, and that is really the first step, or you’re going to get caught in a trap of chasing things, never feeling satisfied. If you do attract “what you want,” you’re not going to be satisfied. They’re going to be an emptiness and a feeling of, “It’s not enough and I need more.”
Dr. Rob: Well, Socrates said there’re two tragedies in life. One is that you don’t get your heart’s desire. Two is that you do get your heart’s desires. That’s what he meant is that if you do get them, but you’re still caught up in the ego. You’re not going to be satisfied and you’re going to think, “Oh, I thought these things were meant to make me happy. I got them, I have them all and I’m still not happy.” They painted themselves into a corner. The spiritual psychology is really about understanding that deeper process in us, understanding that we’re not the ego and understanding how do we do it? How do we get beyond the ego?
Debi: If we’re not the ego, who are we? Instead of just believing, like you said, in religion where you just read a book, the Bible or some other spiritual book or Think And Grow Rich, and you say, “Hey, I believe this because this person said this or this book says this.” Then you’re really back in religion, but what you want to do is have a direct experience of the truth of what is beyond your ego. That’s really the key. So, one of the ways that the ego operates is survival. Anytime you’re in fear or anytime you need something externally to feel comfortable, to feel fulfilled, to feel happy, you are basically making something outside of you more powerful than you. I call it putting it up on the pedestal.
If you try to use these laws or your spiritual work to get those things, you’re going to be very unhappy. Maybe short-term you’ll feel good, but eventually, if you don’t do the inner examination and free yourself of that attachment, that ego survival attachment, you are going to feel dissatisfied. Jim Carrey famously said, “I wish everyone would be wildly successful, famous, have model wives, drive fancy cars, have mansions, and then realize that that’s not really what makes you happy.” I’m paraphrasing him.
Dr. Rob: Yes. The spiritual psychology, then, is a way to really understand the Law of Attraction, the spiritual laws, even the teachings of the religions in the deeper sense, but understanding them from that deeper part of our psyche, not from the ego. Because it’s like I tell a lot of people, “Yes, you know all those beautiful things that you read about on Facebook and all those spiritual teachers that speak today and teach abundance and possibility. Those things are true, but you have to do your internal work first, then those principles apply.” If they don’t, you’re still on the surface, you’re still creating ego and you’re just trying to add spirituality to the ego piece, to the persona, to the mask we wear.
Debi: You see sometimes people do that. They dress differently and they have to feel like they are super spiritual and they have to talk spiritual and they have this spiritual persona and they have to speak in a quiet voice and forgive everyone and be kind. What happens is that the shadow is building up. If you build your ego on this spiritual ideal, and you’re really doing it from an ego perspective, the opposite goes in the shadow. All the anger, all the desire to do something destructive, all the power a lot of times gets thrown into the shadow and then you’re really just trying to– You’ll get upset and triggered with people, but then you feel like you can’t express your anger because you’re a spiritual person, so you see this showing up.
I remember when I first started doing spiritual work, I felt like there was a judgment of how spiritual people should be. They have to be walking on water and not make mistakes and not hurt people. We’re human and we’re messy with our own emotions and we’re messy with other people’s emotions. You just accept that. Then it’s also accepting that about ourselves is really where we start to begin to move beyond the ego. One of the things that I love about the spiritual psychology and the Jungian model is that we go to the deeper level.
We’re not just talking about concepts of spirituality, we’re actually going and having a direct experience of our spiritual nature. For me, visualization is great, but you still feel like you’re making things up, but in the dream work, it really is a profound experienced to know that there’s a deeper part of myself that is saying, “I’m helping you, Deb. I’m on your side. This is what’s happening.” Reflecting back, it’s like this wiser creative force that’s helping me live my life. We all believe in this higher power, but we don’t realize that we have access to it, direct access to our wisdom.
That’s where I feel that with Jungian work you get to go to that deeper level. It’s not just a concept, an intellectual concept of, “Oh, I have a higher self, that’s not my true self.” What most people call their true self is really a perfect ego one that they want to have, but our true self is all the messiness, it’s all the beauty and all the things we don’t like about ourselves and then all the things that we haven’t discovered about ourselves yet. That’s our true self.
Dr. Rob: Yes. Some people have asked, “Well, why should I do this? I mean, if I’m doing okay or appear to be doing okay, I’ve survived, I’ve made a good life for myself so far. Why do I need to do this deeper work?” It’s really that there’s more to us than just what’s on the surface and building an external appearance of things. Now, we need those things. We’re not saying get rid of those things or push away success and abundance and all that. We need those things to do our work in the world. Really, what the spiritual psychology does, it balances out that life that we live externally with a deeper mystical aspect of our life.
Debi: So you’re not just living on the surface.
Dr. Rob: Exactly. That balance, Jung said, is really a third element that comes into play. What happens when we get in touch with our unconscious mind is it creates a new synthesis, which he called the self, and it’s what people call the higher self. It creates a new sense of ourselves that is both this external, temporary life of cars and computers and work and all this beautiful stuff, with that internal mystical life of the soul, of the spirit. That balance is really what we’re looking for. It gives us a new sense of being in the world where it’s not just about our little ego life, but we’re connected to something bigger. To the cosmos, to the divine mind, whatever you call it. It connects us directly to that source.
Debi: You know what you just said is so powerful, because it reminds me that ultimately, the reason why we’re here is to have that experience, is to have that deeper experience of our spiritual nature. A lot of times we don’t know why were dissatisfied in life. We think, “Well, if I had a better job, or if I made more money, or if I had a kid, or got married, or if I did my TED talk, or became famous and had a bestselling book,” all these things that we try to do or achieve with the Law of Attraction, what we really– Underneath that desire is the desire for this mystical experience. We think it’s in those things and we’re mistaken, and that’s why we’re off the wrong track. If we’re thinking it’s outside of us or it’s in the future, “One day when I get those things, then I’ll have this mystical bliss in my life.”
Now, what I suggest is that we use the things that we desire, the desire to be a bestselling author, desire to have lots of money or desire to have a great partner, as a vehicle to understand our spiritual nature. We can still have those things and still use those things, but they’re in the right place. They’re not there to give us spiritual enlightenment, they’re there to help us realize that it’s already inside of us. So, we can use those projects that we have as a way to understand and open up deeper parts of ourselves.
A lot of times, I remember my life, the one thing– The times that I had the biggest transformation are when the external world stopped cooperating with me. It was like there’s a place, and we all get there, where it’s like, “Okay, the world’s not cooperating right now, I’m not getting what I wanted. I’m stuck.” It forces you to go inward because you can’t get out there anymore. When I broke my– I had my manless, jobless and homeless day, I said I had– I didn’t have a man to go to anymore, I didn’t have a job to go to anymore, I didn’t even know what my purpose was. The only thing I could do was go inward. I was not, and it was the biggest blessing.
You don’t want to get to that point in life, you trying to chase carrots with the Law of Attraction. What will happen is that when you do this work and you go inward, and you see yourself beyond the ego, when you do apply these principles, they happen really quickly. One of the things we tell our clients is that, “Be careful when you do this work because everything gets created faster, at a faster pace. If you stay in ego, you could try the Law of Attraction, it may take you a long time to create something, or you may still hit a wall because you’re still acting in ego, you’re not even having access to all your spiritual power.”
When you individuate, as Jung would call it, we end up having more access to a more broader experience of our power and then when we want abundance, it flows. When we [unintelligible 00:33:30] ready for that great relationship, it shows up. When we have a message that we want to be delivered in a bestselling book, the things, the world will tend to conspire to help us, but if we’re working from ego, it’s like we’re battling this physical world without the resources of our– [unintelligible 00:33:49] in the spiritual work, but we’re not really living a spiritual life.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: It’s a lot. It’s a big topic, right?
Dr. Rob: Yes. If you have questions on this topic or related topics, please feel free to comment–
Debi: On our Facebook group, Debi and Dr. Rob Show.
Dr. Rob: Yes. We’ll try to do some some podcasts on those topics.
Debi: Yes, I know we covered a lot today, but tying it back to spirituality and science, it’s the same thing. Materialism and spirituality, we need both. We are here not to flow on clouds and dance with unicorns on rainbows, although that would be fun in dreams. We’re here to live and have full human experience, to feel pain, to feel love, to feel passion, to feel orgasms, to feel the sadness and grief and joy and newness and the gamut of being a human being.
We don’t want to give that up for spiritual life, but we also don’t want to get so overly dependent on these human needs that we forget the spiritual life, and we don’t want to escape the humanity by just being all spiritual. We want to have that synergy, like you said. It is really important. Yes, I’d love to hear your questions about this topic. Challenge us if you disagree, and let us know how this has changed you by going to our podcast Facebook group, and we’ll see you next time on the Debi and Dr. Rob Show.
Dr. Rob: All right. Take care.
Dr. Rob: Much love.
Debi: You’ve been listening to the Debi and Dr. Rob Show. To find out more about us, you can visit us on our website at debiandrob.com. Also, please don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes or Google Play. We’d love to see you on every show. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope you remember to believe in your biggest dreams.
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How does guilt run your relationship live? Feeling guilty in dating, relationships or in your business? Why is this emotion so powerful and how can you work with it so you can feel at peace? Find out how to express your true self without having guilt run your life. If you have ever been afraid of hurting someone’s feelings and avoided confrontation, this will help you gain clarity and feel better.
Today’s topic is the topic of guilt on how do we deal with it, what it is, and how to live more peacefully in our relationships without so much guilt. This affects your business. This affects your personal life. It affects your romantic relationships. This feeling of guilt seems to run through all areas of our life so I’m sure you’re going to find this talk fascinating. I want you to stay tuned to the end of this talk because I have a special offer for you.
What is guilt? Well, guilt is an emotion and the way it was formed is that when we were young, we were basically these emotional creatures and we learned how to cope and how to relate with our parents, how to conform to the culture of the family, how to get along, how not to get punished and guilt was often one of those emotions that we felt when we did something wrong.
Our parents would tell us maybe you were a bad girl or you’re a bad boy and we felt guilty. We felt like, “Oh, I shouldn’t have done that. That was a bad thing. Now look what happened. I got punished.” As we grow up, we have that guilt basically to help us regulate our behavior with other human beings. I mean, we want to fit in, we want to get along with people, we want people to like us for us to live in a healthy society and be a part of that society. We do need other people’s approval sometimes.
It’s not a terrible thing to have guilt. Here’s where the problem is. The problem is that sometimes and for most people, guilt drives us unconsciously. Many of the decisions we make, many of the ideas that we have, or how we communicate with people, or where we hold back, or where we push is all basically driven by this deep level of guilt that if I say this, they’re going to feel bad. If I ask for this, they’re going to be mad. If I do this, they’re not going to talk to me anymore. If I say this or I act this way, I’m going to be labeled a bad person.
If you think about all through school when we were younger and someone did us wrong, we would gossip with each other and shun someone out if they acted in an inappropriate way or you cheated with my boyfriend and so we make that person a bad person. Not to say that those aren’t bad things or those things are not nice, but what happens is that we start to regulate our life based on what other people are going to think about us, what other people are going to say, and it ends up stifling who we are.
Here’s the thing, if we start only acting from this guilt and we’re out there in the world and we’re not saying what we really want to say or doing what we really want to do, we’re actually manipulating other people. When it comes down to it, how many times have you got it right? How many times have you said, “I’m going to say this,” and the person was like, “Oh, that was great.” Most of the time we misjudge what is right or wrong.
That’s because there’s no right or wrong, that’s subjective. We all have our own unique rules based on our past history, how our parents raised us, our culture, our background, and our experiences in life as to what really is a right action and a wrong action, and a good action and a bad action. We end up trying to figure out what the rules are.
I hear a lot of my clients tell me, “I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what the proper thing is to do in this situation.” It’s always to do with is good for your highest good. How do we do that? Well, first of all, we have to first recognize that guilt is not a bad thing that if we didn’t have it, we would be reckless and mean and terrible and hurt people and not care. It makes us human, but we want to make sure that it doesn’t drive us. Now, we want to check in and say, “Where has guilt stopped me from really asking for what I wanted or saying what I need to say?”
Here’s a perfect example.
I work with many single people and a lot of times, you go out with someone and you’re not interested, and you feel really bad or someone even tries to contact you on an online site and you’re just like, “Oh, it’s so uncomfortable. I’m not interested in this person. How do I let them down easy? How do I let them know I’m not interested without hurting their feelings.” We just feel like we messed it up a lot. I’ve been there, sometimes they get mad when you don’t want to go out with them. They’re mad that you don’t give them a chance.
Other times though, they’re saying thank you. “Thank you for being honest, I can move on.” If you try to basically put yourself in their mind and try to assume how are they going to respond, you’re never going to get it right. Maybe you get a right 50% of the time. Why not just do what you need to do and say what you need to say? Most people really have good intentions, all of you are probably really good people. You’re not going to do anything that’s intentionally harmful to someone. You have to be truthful and you can do it in a nice way and do it in the way that feels right for you, and how basically you would expect to be treated.
Now, here is another example and a problem is that what happens, though, when we’re dating is that we start to think, “Well, that person is a bad person because they rejected me or that person’s a bad person because they went out with me two times and then disappeared.” Then we start making their behavior bad and we start almost guilting them. Maybe we run into them, and we feel like we want them to feel guilty about what they did.
Dating is just such a weird scenario. I mean, we didn’t have to deal with this a 100 years ago. Now, the human beings are dealing with social media, we’re dealing with other people, and dealing with people who most of the time were raised in a different culture than us, in a different society than us. People move around, we’re not in the same small town anymore that has the same rules.
For us to make everyone happy all the time and like everyone all the time, it’s just impossible. It’s just part of the process of dating is to meet new people. Basically, what you want to do is not get triggered by their behavior or make their behavior wrong. Of course, not be a doormat and let them walk all over you but not get so offended by it because some people quite frankly do not have the ability to speak the truth. They will run and hide. They will avoid you because they don’t know how to let you down like you struggle letting other people down.
If you can have that compassion for human beings and many people aren’t raised to have truthful conversations, most of us haven’t. Let’s take guilt out of the equation and ask ourselves, “How can we move on from this person, how can we let go and how can we stop judging people for what they’re doing?” Then we won’t feel as judged ourselves. Now, Rumi said that in-between right doing and wrongdoing, there is a field and in that field, I will meet you.
If we can really come together with that idea that we are good people, we are kind good people at our core, most people are, and we do not need guilt to regulate our behavior like we did when we were a kid. We always have the best intentions and that’s all you can do. You can’t control how people respond and you can’t feel bad if they respond in an angry way or whatever way they do because you’re just being in your truth. What will happen is you’ll start to open up and start to be more in your power and speaking your truth and being more bold and stretching yourself a little more and not being afraid of other people and really have compassion.
As long as you bring that compassion and love to any communication regardless of how they respond, you don’t have to worry about feeling guilty. Guilt is a really tough emotion to deal with. The best way is to know that it’s not bad but it also isn’t something that should drive your life and drive your decisions anymore. That you are a good person, remember that. You are a good person and everything you do is probably with that really good intention of caring and we mess it up a lot of times and we have to let go of that harshness to ourselves and the harshness of other people for just trying to be human in this world. Just can’t we all just get along, right?
Thank you for joining me for this Facebook Live. If you have comments please write them below. I’d love to hear what you think about this topic. It’s really, really important for you to be aware of this emotion and aware of how it drives you and not be driven by it.
Like I promised, below if you are looking for love and you want to find out more about how you can find true love in your life by using the power of your mind, understanding who you are in a deep level based on real psychology, I want you to sign up for my video series on How to Live Your Full Potential, and it’s really great. See the link to the right!
You’ll get some great insight. It’s absolutely free, and the link is below. Love for you to sign up and continue the journey with me.
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