We all have experienced those states where our mind goes off on a tangent, spins out of control, sturs up our emotions and then a few moments and sometimes a few days later we awaken from the fog and see the situation more clearly.
Debra Maldonado talks about ‘animus’ in a woman as defined by Jungian Psychology, how it affects women’s thought processes, and how we as women can integrate our emotions into having empowered relationships.
The anima and animus are described in Carl Jung’s school of analytical psychology as part of his theory of the collective unconscious. Jung described the animus as the unconscious masculine side of a woman, and the anima as the unconscious feminine side of a man, with each transcending the personal psyche.
-Wikipedia
If you have tried to change your life but still struggle with getting results, you may be trying to create with fear. You have unlimited potential but there are fears that interfere with your power.
Podcast Episode 59: Overcoming Fear and Living Your True Potential
In this episode, we help you understand how to create from your true nature.
Learn the four basic human fears (fear of loss of money, fear of loss of love, fear of loss of health, and fear of loss of life)
Why we falsely believe we are the ego and feel separate from our real self
The reason why you keep repeating patterns and seeing the same results
How to burst the bubble of misperception and start creating as if your success was inevitable
TRANSCRIPT
Debi: Episode number 59.
Dr. Rob: All right, we’re finally at close to 60.
Debi: Close to 60, 0 to 60. Today’s my favorite topic. It’s called Fear. Well, it’s not a laughing matter, but it’s something that we should take a little more lightly than we have in our lives. Fear is something that we’re all familiar with. We’re born with it, and today we’re going to talk about how you can overcome fear. The four basic human fears, if you didn’t know what they were, and how to really create with power based on the wisdom of Eastern philosophy.
Dr. Rob: Yes, I think the way to approach it is this really cool model that Patanjali, the great Yogi puts forth. He says, “Essentially, we all start off in ignorance. Not in a bad way.” Meaning it’s just that we don’t know our true nature. We don’t know what we had to do. We start off as questioning where are we? What are we doing here? All that.
Debi: We basically learn about the world through the people around us.
Dr. Rob: Absolutely, and then this questioning, this observing the world around us creates the sense of I, as separate from the world.
Debi: The I maker.
Dr. Rob: Yes, the ego in psychology. Now, this ego again, there’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s caught up in this ignorance. It doesn’t know who it is in essence. We don’t know who we are when we’re starting out in this world.
Debi: When you say who we really are, is limitless potential. We’re connected to everything that we can imagine and things that we even aren’t conscious of knowing. The idea that we are more than just the ego that we’re a spiritual being.
Dr. Rob: Yes, so we have this ignorance, this lack of wisdom about our nature. Then we have the sense of isolation as ego, as ourselves are separate from this incredible universe. Now, if that wasn’t bad enough or complicated enough, then we’re subject to conditioning because of our aversion and attachment. Meaning we like certain things, we want certain things, and we are repelled by other things. That push and pull then of the environment, has a conditioning effect on us, on that I that we are caught up in. That’s the ground floor where everyone experiences.
Debi: Regardless of your childhood, good or bad people, where you were born into, rich family, poor family, middle-class family, everyone deals with this.
Dr. Rob: Yes. That’s the ground of our existence, in essence, our biological existence. Then we get into what prevents us from knowing that deeper knowledge about ourselves. Some people talk about blocks, but well the Kleshas translates as hindrances. What are the hindrances to our awakening? One of them is that fear. The basic fear that we have of losing our life, and we cling to it. We think if something happens to this little ego, I, I’m done for.
Debi: Well, you had said to me, and you mentioned this many times, “As long as you have a body, you’re going to have an ego. You’re going to see yourself physically separate from everything else in the world, and the material or what appears to be material world. It’ll feel separate and that we have our perspective, is coming from within the body that we are trying to protect.” We’re trying to look good. We’re trying to feel good. We’re trying to survive.
We have four basic fears that the ego creates, and everyone has this. Some people have it at certain degrees than others, and it really doesn’t matter, again, what your background is. We all have it. The first fear is the loss of money in a modern world. We had it in ancient times, but it wasn’t money we used. It was bartering or resources or-
Dr. Rob: Yes, I think in ancient times, it would translate as the loss of face. It’s in some cultures, it’s still very prevalent where-
Debi: A status.
Dr. Rob: Yes, status. You don’t want to lose face, because it takes you down a few notches on the ladder.
Debi: Yes, that’s interesting that you say that because a lot of people think they’re really worried about money. When they’re trying to attract money or make more money or be successful, that they think it’s the money that they want, but what they’re really looking for is to look good and have a higher status, and have people respect them or not look bad upon them. Money has a lot entangled in it. The loss of money is one of them.
Dr. Rob: Big time.
Debi: The second one is the loss of health. Again, preserving the body. The weight loss industry is a billion, multi-billion dollar industry. There are so many people that want to have, look good again from a physical standpoint. Also there’s people that suffer from ill health, cancer, a disease, also mental health. We have a lot of this fear of that loss of health.
Dr. Rob: Yes, and the context of this, what it’s implying is that these fears then, prevent us from seeing our true nature, because we’re caught up in them and we think, “Well, if I could only avoid this fear, then I will be fine.”
Debi: Let’s clear our fear.
Dr. Rob: Yes, and so we spend all our psychological, and emotional energy trying to avoid these things.
Debi: There’s another one, there’s the loss of love.
Dr. Rob: Fear of the loss.
Debi: Fear of loss of love. We are afraid of people leaving us, withdrawal of love. That’s how our parents typically disciplined us as children, is they were stern. Even as a baby, they would give us a look that a baby could read that, “You did a bad thing. You’re a bad child.” We want that approval of that authority figure in the home. Then we end up going in relationships. It’s the same thing. Even if someone dies. That loss that that other person gave us something that we didn’t have. With that withdrawal, they’re taking away of what love is.
Then the last one ultimately is the loss of health– I mean life, which is related to health, or dying. The fear of death.
Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s the clinging to the I again. It goes back at full circle. It goes back to the only reason that we have these fears, is because we believe we are the ego, the I. To lose the I for the, let’s say for the mind that is an ignorance of its true nature, is equal to death. It clings to the illusions that the I creates, of separateness, of the world is out there and love, money. Health is out there. I need to chase after it.
Debi: Let’s just review the four fears. The four basic fears are the fear of the loss of money, the fear of the loss of health, the fear of the loss of love, and the fear of the loss of life. I think health and life overlap a little, but I think they are different because there’s a different mechanism that wants us to be healthy and look good and stay young, versus that mechanism that wants based clearly to just not die. To really put ourselves in danger. These fears are on us. If we are, like you said, if we think we’re the ego, they will always be in charge. Why are these fears in the way of us getting what we want?
Dr. Rob: Yes, I think because they lead us in a downward spiral. If you think, “If I’m starting off with ignorance, that is, not knowing my true nature, and then I’m caught up in this delusion that I am separate from everything, which is the I, then the conditioning has its power over me.” In other words, the things that happen to me, are going to determine how I’m going to behave. What am I going to do? How I’m going to defend myself and see the world. That’s a downward spiral into deeper levels of ignorance in a sense. I’m not
understanding, I’m not gaining knowledge, awareness of who I am. The true nature of my mind and the true nature of reality.
Debi: Well, it’s like that idea that our parents had these same fears, and they all have the ignorance. Most parents didn’t grow up in an ashram and with enlightenment, so we have a parent that teaches us this is the way the world is too. We, like you said, the parent doesn’t have to directly say these things. It’s implied. We learn through just watching them and watching how they respond. Then we basically follow their lead of, this is just how to function in the world. Then we end up repeating the fears in our mind, and really repeating the same actions and the way they work.
This is a very common phrase, is they’re playing not to lose, so they’re not playing to win. You’re playing to survive, and the ego’s job is really survival. It’s not, “Let’s be born in this world and create something really outrageous and incredible that breaks the boundaries of life. Go through fear and do something different.” No, the ego’s tendency is to, “How can I make the least amount of waves, and get fed every day and look good, and not make a fool of myself and survive the day?”
I would think our ancestors probably that’s all they thought about, was survival end of the day. They weren’t thinking of some grandiose path in life and purpose, except survival. Most of us on this planet maybe people not listening to the show, but we have been programmed to think like our ancestors, that are just surviving the day. There’s so much more to us than that. How do we change it? How do we go through and-
Dr. Rob: Right. We want to play to win, not just play to not lose, like you said. It is a subtle difference that most people miss, because they’re caught up in that game of life, and they’re always out to defend because of the fears, the underlying fears. Now, these fears are unconscious, because conditioning we know has a powerful effect on us. By the time we know that it’s running the show and we think we’re making free choices, but we’re really acting out of conditioning.
Debi: Let’s look at examining one of the fears, how it shows up. The fear of the loss of money. What you’re saying is that we have a pattern unconsciously that we’re operating under. A very simple example of that would be you have a fear of a loss of money, so you are overly focused on not losing. Your mind is putting all of its energy in not losing. Imagine if your mind is consumed with, how do I not lose? It can’t think in possibility, it can’t think of how do I win? How do I make more money? It’s more like how do I not lose money?
Most of us, that’s how we’re conditioned, is that the loss of money is really the scary thing. That’s why we get triggered when we get a bill that’s way too high than we expected, we lose a job, we try to build a business, but it’s not working. That fear is reflected out in our reality, and unconsciously what we’re doing is I think we’re just giving too much energy to it. That energy is giving us our result.
Dr. Rob: Yes, absolutely. It is a mind shift that happens. If you’re thinking, in let’s say accepting these challenges that we are born into. The first one is ignorance. In Sanskrit, it’s a VGo. Meaning there’s no knowledge, no light, no understanding. The first part of, let’s say, the first challenge we have is to gain knowledge. If it’s the fear of money, well, what is money? What is its purpose? Because if we just buy into the conditioning, again, we’re thinking that money’s out there. That wealth comes from the outside. When it’s a mindset. It’s the ability to think clearly and understand the nature of this reality that allows us to generate abundance.
Debi: When I refer to it as a bubble that we’re in, that we see our mind when we’re looking out in the world. If we’re not conscious of our divine self and we think we’re just, this ignorance of who we really are, we are going to see a delusion basically. This delusion of limitation. It’s almost like we’re caught up in it, and the more we do, we feel, “Okay, look, I tried to make more money, it didn’t work. That’s just the way it is. The economy’s bad, or no one wants this product, or I’m not good enough yet. Maybe I need more experience, or I don’t have the qualifications.” But we’re really just seeing our mind. We’re seeing the bubble. That’s where the bubble of ignorance and the ego is actually creating it versus it’s actually a real possibility out there. We have to find a way to move beyond that.
Dr. Rob: Right, and it applies to the other fears as well. The fear of loss of death– I’m sorry, the fear of loss of health is the same principle, because when you’re caught up in thinking that health comes from just exercises, just dieting or just at nutrition, you’re externalizing the, let’s say the will towards health.
Debi: Or even just surgeries and working on the physical body, removing parts and-
Dr. Rob: Right, depending on medication and surgery to keep you healthy. You’re missing the point that it’s a mind body that you’re dealing with, and that health originates from within the mind. The same with love, because if you understand that love is arising from within you not from without, then you’re misperceiving things.
Debi: I think very specifically, the fear of loss of love, very similar to fear of loss of money, is that most people are going out looking for a relationship or being in a relationship, with that playing not to lose mentality. That, “I better protect my heart because people can’t be trusted. I don’t know if I’m getting my heart broken again, and so I better play not to lose versus really open up and go forward with it.” What happens is that the fear of loss of love. There are times where maybe when we were younger, someone let us down and wasn’t there for us when we needed them, and we felt that abandonment. We all have, in some way.
We are trying to defend that still, and what happens is that we think it’s gone and we’re rationalizing that we’re beyond that, but it’s still operating. If we keep repeating and getting the same relationships, like, “Why do people keep leaving me? Why are relationships not lasting? It’s like maybe I’m doing something. Maybe I just need to change my dating profile, or move to a different city or get a makeover and all these physical things that we’re trying to change, or change our behavior in a relationship so people won’t leave.” It’s still going to play out the same way. If you’re fearing the loss of love, you will create the loss of love.
If you’re fearing the loss of money, you will create the loss of money. If you’re fearing the loss of health, you will create a loss of health. People try to do those diets, those crash diets, and they all say, “They don’t work.” Because your mind is pushing away a disease or overweightness. It’s like you’re rejecting it, and you’re giving it a lot of energy. You’re judging it. You’re judging yourself because of it. You’re judging yourself because you’re single. You’re judging yourself because you’re overweight, and you’re judging yourself because you don’t have any money. It’s like you’re creating your own trap. You’re not doing this on purpose. This is not a judgment at all. This is what happens when we get caught up in the bubble. We try to get out and we think, “If I just think positive or I do a vision board, then I’ll escape this bubble.” Rob, you’re going to tell us how we escape the bubble. Are we going to pop the bubble?
Dr. Rob: [chuckles] Well, actually again, Patanjali gives us the answer. He says, in essence, not in these words. I’m paraphrasing, but he says something like this, if you ask, “Well, who is the one that’s conditioned by these external forces?” The only one that’s conditioned is the I, that sense of ego, the ego. Now, if you ask, “What is the nature of the ego?” It’s not existent. It doesn’t exist. It’s simply like a construct that we hold in our mind, to operate in the world to survive now. There’s nothing wrong because it helps us survive, but it’s not who we really are and what we really are.
It’s like, if you think about the body has a homeostasis to it, it doesn’t have– You can’t find the homeostasis in the body, but there is a mechanism that balances the body and helps it stay at a certain temperature. Sweat when we get too hot, shiver when we get too cold, so we keep that body temperature move. Regulate all the chemicals as we feed our body and distribute everything. It has a balancing function. Think of the ego as our psychological mechanism for homeostasis.
The difference is, we don’t personalize homeostasis in the body. We don’t say, “That’s my homeostasis. My body’s sweating right now. I must be a bad person.” No, or, “I’m cold right now. I’m a bad person. I’m doing something wrong.” When psychologically, when we’re facing an adversity, the psyche, the ego has a way to bring us back into balance based on the information it learned before. What happens is that we personalize it. We say, “That’s me, that’s my resistance. That’s my pattern of not being able to have money, or not being able to have love.” We tend to look at our psychological patterns as related to some I.
Dr. Rob: Yes, so because ignorance is the root of all these fears. It is also, let’s say that knowledge, higher knowledge of the true nature of ourselves. Our consciousness is the solution, as we gain this deeper knowledge of who we are, what our mind is capable of, and how it creates this apparent universe for us. That clarifies the state of our being, that we were never really bound. We were never really subject to conditioning. The only reason we were, let’s say, caught up in that, was because we thought we were the ego.
Debi: If we’re not the ego, who are we? Back to that idea too of the ego not having a personality. It’s really a function. That what happens is that since we’re self-aware through our whole life, there’s this continuum of awareness of consciousness that when we remember things from childhood, what is that part of our mind that remembers all those things? It’s a continuum of beingness.
[silence]
Debi: If we aren’t the ego, what is that, Rob?
Dr. Rob: Right, the question is not so much who are we, but what are we, in a sense. Right, because what is the nature of our experience as human beings? It is that awareness and the [unintelligible 00:24:55], which is really the highest knowledge known to humankind, it says very clearly, “You are that consciousness of the universe. You are the awareness of the universe.” Meaning you’re not your individual self as you believe yourself to be. It’s an apparent reality that arises from the creation of the universe. We are participating and experiencing this universe, as separate individuals, but the reality, the fundamental reality, is that we are the universe, we are the self, we are the consciousness of this experience.
Debi: How I do this. I don’t even know if I ever shared with you how I, because I’m a very visual person. I picture the bubble of my conscious, like my pattern. I could see the pattern, I can see it show up externally. Something that I see showing up over and over again. The first step is recognizing the pattern, how much money are you making? How much love do you have in your life? What’s your health right now? What’s that pattern? Then I want you to imagine that that pattern is like a bubble, that you’re surrounded by this bubble, but the bubble isn’t the totality of what’s possible. I imagine myself, what is outside the bubble? What is the potential that’s unlimited outside this bubble?
If we could start to think and imagine ourselves outside of the bubble, outside of this conditioned bubble, we can really start to break free of that fear . The only reason we are in fear, is because we’re in that bubble, that the ego’s bubble that it created that I got to survive. Imagine how it would feel if you got the success or the love or the health that you wanted? First of all, what would that feel like? How would you feel if you knew it was inevitable?
If you didn’t have fear of, “Maybe it might not happen for me.” How do we move our mind from identifying with this ego and this ignorance of we think we’re limited, to this idea that you can have it all, like the great teachers teach all the time, is that anything’s possible. How do we do that? What’s a great step for you? That’s how I do it. I see myself outside the bubble, and start imagining something outside the bubble and I don’t believe the bubble.
Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s remembering to, or reminding yourself of what the nature of this experience is. Perceptually, when you wake up in the morning, your senses tell you, “You’re separate than the world you’re seeing, the objects of the world out there. If you’re observing an object, that means there’s a subject, meaning there’s someone observing you.” You think, “Well, that must be that ego I.” But it’s not really the ego I, it’s a higher witness within us that is the creator of the universe.
That witness is a higher self, the true self, or what some Eastern philosophies call higher consciousness, the cosmic consciousness. That consciousness within you is allowing you then, to observe the world and the universe, but it’s also the creator of that universe.
Debi: When you step outside and identify with that powerful part of yourself, and reading higher knowledge. We have a great course, The Power of the Keto, talking about the public I Keto that talks about the higher knowledge. When you see yourself outside of it, the key is that you don’t feel afraid anymore. You start acting like what would happen if you weren’t afraid of losing money? What would you do? What would what would you do different? Try something new this week that you feel, “I could take a chance on something.” That if I didn’t have the fear of losing money, what would I do? What bold move can I do?
If I didn’t fear losing love or someone abandoning me, or someone hurting me, what would I do? How would I be with people? Would I be clear with them and tell them how I really feel and be open and know who I am and not worry, “I hope they like me, and I better not say that. That will push them away.” Being fully in your power, and how would it feel that everything you put in your mouth is health and vitality and nourishing to you? Because I tell you, the other two fears are probably what creates the health problem. Is the fear of money and the fear of love, creates a lot of people imbalance in eating and not working out, or overworking out or over starving themselves and putting themselves in a dangerous physical condition. They all play together, and it all comes down to that one thing. We believe we’re the I, we believe that we’re limited and we forget who we really are.
A great show today. I know it’s a lot. It’s heavy. Again, I will ask you to think about, what is the pattern in your life? What’s the bubble you’re living in? What would it be like if you were outside of the bubble? What do you want that’s outside of this bubble? What do you really want? What would you do differently if you knew it was inevitable that you get everything you want? Play that I get everything I want the game, because that’s the truth. You get everything you want, and actually when you get what you want outside of the fears, it’s fully satisfying. If you get what you want inside fear, like I met someone from their fear of love, you’re going to be clinging to them, you’re going to be worried if they’re going to leave, you’re going to be stressed all the time. If you get money, you’re going to worry about losing it all. If there’s more coming in, you’re still trapped. The key to really free your mind is to free yourself from these fears as well.
Dr. Rob: Absolutely. Yes, we started off talking about this downward cycle. Keep in mind that the upward cycle begins with higher knowledge, meaning you start to understand your mind and working with your mind.
The [unintelligible 00:31:28] says that there are many paths, but they all lead to that higher self, the true– they all lead to that same conclusion that we are not our ego, that we are his higher self. It’s important to choose a path and stick to it, and we invite you to do some of our work if you’re interested, if this makes sense to you. We have courses, we have a coach training.
Debi: Yes, young and life coach training. I also want to mention too that you’ve heard a lot of this probably before that anything is possible. What most people don’t– they leave out the idea that you have to drop the ego to actually really create. A lot of people are trying to use spiritual laws, the law of attraction, law of polarities and all these things. They’re still operating an ego that if you’re an ego, those fears are still at play. Again, I’m going to use visualization in the law of attraction to attract this ideal partner. If I’m an ego, it’s going to be a hot mess because you’re going to be stressed out all the time if they’re going to call you are not.
Tthe same thing with money or you’re going out and you’re going to use the law of attraction and visualize myself on a yacht and the bit of big mansion. You’ve seen all those videos people do. If you’re coming, they don’t teach you how to get outside of the ego. They teach you basically the good news, but they don’t teach you how to really do it.
Dr. Rob: How to polish up the ego.
Debi: How to make it all shiny. I call it the South help makeover, just a superficial makeover. You’re really still not free until you escape from those fears. It’s normal. It’s not something happened to you in the past that created these fears. We’ve all been conditioned this way, and we all have the power to choose and create something else. Hope you enjoyed today, and don’t forget to subscribe to us on our podcast, on iTunes, on Google play, on Spotify, check out our YouTube channel.
Dr. Rob: Come to see us at our live events.
Debi: Yes, we’re having a two right now, live events for the public. One is in January in LA called Alchemy, and we’re also doing a version in Prague in May next year. We hope to see you there. If you are interested, go to our website, Debi and Dr. Rob, go to events and apply today. It’s by application only to get a ticket to these very exclusive high-end events that are going to transform your mind and free you to create what you want.
Dr. Rob: Awesome.
Debi: Have a great day, everyone. Enjoy the holidays and we’ll see you next time on the Debi and Dr. Rob Show.
What is the law of attraction and is science replacing spirituality?
Have you heard of the Law of Attraction?
Maybe you tried to think positive or put together a vision board and wondered does this really work? In this episode, we explain the science behind what some people call the spiritual or universal laws and how you can apply them in your life. 53: Is the Law of Attraction – Science or Spirituality? Debi tells her story about getting the DVD, “The Secret” and how she realized she already knew this secret. Now fifteen years later everyone jumped on the law of attraction bandwagon and there are many different people teaching this content. Rob talks about the language of the law of attraction and how it comes from the New Thought movement in the early 1900’s. We discuss whether these spiritual ideas are outdated because now we understand science. We have a natural curiosity to learn about ourselves and we still have to answer the big questions including spiritual needs.
If you love to hear about science (neuroscience and quantum physics) and how spirituality fit together, you will fully enjoy this episode. Understand what is spirituality? Spirituality is not a belief, that is religion. We explain the law of karma and other spiritual ideas.
If you want to explore more, check out our new POWER OF THE GITA program that starts this month!
Transcript
Debi: Episode number 53, Debi and Dr. Rob Show. This show is about that Law of Attraction that everyone talks about. Is it science or spirituality or a mixture of both? We’re going to clear the air and give you some insight on how to use those spiritual laws in a very powerful way to create the life you really want, so stay tuned. This is the Debi and Dr. Rob Show. You are in the right place if you are tired of the basic self-help and you’re ready for a higher level of teaching in neuroscience, Jungian psychology and Eastern wisdom. We offer world-class personal development and coach training for evolving women entrepreneurs to help you go to the next level of growth in success, relationships, and living your purpose, so let’s get started. Dr. Rob, episode number 53. They say it couldn’t be done.
Dr. Rob: A long time coming and it’s finally here. We’re going to talk about the Law of Attraction.
Debi: Yes, a lot of people have asked us that, but before we begin today’s show, I wanted to just mention that if you find our podcast and the content interesting, intriguing, mind-expanding, and you think, “I would really like to learn this at a deeper level. I’d like to train in this process so that I can help others,” either add to your own coaching business or become a coach, we have good news. We have just a few spots left for our fall class for the certification of Jungian spiritual life coaches and the application deadline is October 6th. If you do not apply by October 6th, you’re going to have to wait until next year for our next class.
This is really important. If you have been thinking about doing this program and been putting it off and saying, “I’m going to wait until next year, I’m going to wait until next year,” this is the very last class that we will have as much personal coaching with Rob, because our business is expanding, because our time is limited, we are not going to as many private coaching sessions with Rob in our next class, so if you want to have the full experience of private mentorship with Rob, this is it. Of course, it’s going to be available, but it’ll be almost double what we’re charging this year. Believe me, if you can find a way, make it happen, because this is a really great deal and the last time you’ll get to have that deep connection with Rob all through the program at the price point that we have.
Dr. Rob: Yes. If you’re interested at all, sign up. At least get on a call with us and ask us about the possibility of becoming a coach.
Debi: Yes, just get a free consultation with me. All you need to do is fill out the form. You can go to jungianlifecoach.com and it’ll take you to our page about the coaching program and it starts in– It started already, but you can jump in now. The live event is in October, we have another one in March. You can jump in on this class before it gets along too far and be a part of this amazing journey. Some of our coaches already that have started have seen, even just joining the program, some amazing changes in their life already and they’re really excited for the journey and you’re going to be in the company of a great mind.
Dr. Rob: Yes, that’s an added bonus is that you get to be part of this incredible group.
Debi: If you’re enjoying this deep conversation we have in our podcast and want to be more involved and teach this to other people, help other people live bigger lives, apply today at jugianlifecoach.com. Okay, Rob, let’s get down to business, the Law of Attraction. I remember when a friend of mine, she was a client actually, she said, “Have you seen the movie The Secret?” I had done hypnotherapy and I learned this stuff a long time ago and I was like, “The Secret, oh my God, [chuckles] I’m missing out on something that I don’t know,” and I couldn’t wait. Back then you couldn’t see it online, so I had to send for the DVD and I was all excited when I got it, I couldn’t wait to put in my DVD player, that’s how long ago that movie came out.
I put it in and then they were talking about this secret, they were talking about this secret, and then all of a sudden they go, “The secret is the Law of Attraction,” and my whole body just went, “I know this already. [chuckles] This isn’t a secret.” But it’s so amazing after just understanding, that movie actually set off so many careers in self-help, personal development. The internet was just starting to become popular, so everyone jumped on the bandwagon of the Law of Attraction, there was a lot of attraction workshops and vision board workshops and everyone’s talking about visualization. One of my clients was so cute, he said, “Debi, all this stuff we’ve been working on the past year, now everyone’s going to find out about it. [chuckles] Everyone’s going to know that your thoughts [unintelligible 00:05:20] your life.” He was so worried and I’m like, “There’s plenty of abundance, don’t worry.”
Dr. Rob: That was the whole idea.
Debi: I know, but it was so funny. I was like, “The secret’s out now.”
Dr. Rob: Yes. A lot of people don’t know that that whole language of the Law of Attraction comes from a movement that, I guess, started in the early 1900 and it’s called New Thought. The New Thought schools and philosophers at that time in America were very much influenced by the Eastern gurus that were coming over at that time. There was a few. Vivekananda was coming over and then later Yogananda.
Debi: Also, Think and Grow Rich came out like in the 1920s, and Wallace Wattles wrote The Science of Getting Rich back then. There were a lot of those books that came out and teachers that started talking about potential and your mind.
Dr. Rob: Yes, an interesting history that really hasn’t been written about that much or hasn’t been popularized, but the way it reached the current age was through those ideas of New Thought and they were infused with the religious spirituality ideas, of course.
Debi: Yes, a lot of them are very Christian-based if you think about it. They quote Jesus and they quote Bible verses, so a lot of the Christian model was taken into account there.
Dr. Rob: Yes. I think in our current age, one of the big questions is do we need spirituality given that we have neuroscience now and physics and all this incredible scientific advances. Now we’re getting into artificial intelligence and robots are about to explode onto the scene, so do we need the Law of Attraction and other spiritual ideas to–
Debi: Are they outdated now because we have science?
Dr. Rob: Yes. Us as Jungians or people that study Jung, let’s say students of Jung– Jung’s idea, and he was working around the same time really, because he started in the early 1900s as well, his main idea was that it doesn’t matter how advanced we get technologically, our nature, our curiosity about life, about ourselves, those big questions that we have, they’re not going to go away just because we have a technology and we have computers and we have the Google and artificial intelligence. We still have to answer those big questions for ourselves. He says, “Your spiritual needs are not going to go away just because you have technology and science.” Because, first of all, science is not meant to answer those big questions. Science is really a way of looking at what are my senses telling me and how can I verify if that’s true and if other people are seeing the same thing as I am.
Debi: A lot of psychology is based on science, where it’s behaviorism and testing and research-
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: -and what the evidence, like you said, of the senses, of witnesses, of experience tell us.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: It’s very material. It’s very physical. It’s very external.
Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s upfront on those things. It’s as we’re assuming there is a physical reality, first of all, so it’s making a big assumption and then it’s following through on that. It’s called empiricism. Empiricism simply means, “What can I see, what can I touch, what can I weigh and measure, and I’m going by that.” So, it wasn’t meant to replace spirituality.
Debi: Because spirituality is all about the unseen.
Dr. Rob: Exactly, and even the people that invented science, like Newton, most of the writings were about alchemy and very mystical things.
Debi: But, then, they took only the little piece.
Dr. Rob: Yes. I think there’s errors on both sides. The people that say, “Oh, because we have science now, we have a way of verifying things. You don’t need the–”
Debi: Religion is dead, especially.
Dr. Rob: Yes, or spirituality is superstition and old school. That’s wrong because it wasn’t meant to replace the deeper need and those bigger questions that we have. To replace it with scientific fact, man, you’re giving up the richness of being alive–
Debi: And being human, that’s– There’s things that you can’t put in words too.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: These mystical experiences that we can have that are way beyond just measurements of tools.
Dr. Rob: Yes. Then, you hear people like Dawkins and the selfish gene guy, putting down the religious people because they think, “Oh, they’re being silly or childish or superstitious.” But it’s really that they’re setting up a straw bad guy and saying, “The fundamentalists are the ones that represent religion and spirituality, and us scientists are so enlightened.”
Debi: We’ve based everything on facts and, like you said, empirical evidence.
Dr. Rob: Yes, but that’s a false argument because that’s not spirituality, that’s just a cultural manifestation, people that believe or follow certain rituals. Now, let me just finish this thought. On the other side, people that think, “Science sucks, technology sucks, let’s get back to nature and spirituality,” there is something to that, in that we need to take care of nature and the planet. It’s our home and we can’t live without it, but you can’t turn back science, you can’t turn back what we already know about technology and what we’ve created. You have to come to terms with it, you have to learn how to use it in a creative way. Both ends of the spectrum, I think, are off.
Debi: Extremist.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: Well, what I wanted to say was that I know there’s a lot- when we used to do a lot of work with love, there was a lot out there about hormones and about your brain and it triggers your brain. Helen Fisher did a lot of research on what your brain does when it’s in love, and attachment theory and all those things. Those are great, but it takes the romantic version of what love is about and the romantic version of what spirituality can be about. What really gives our life richness and meaning that’s far beyond just evidence is a beautiful thing, so what we want to do is bridge both the spirituality and science together. How do we do that? Another thing I’d like to talk about is, what is spirituality? Think about it. Is it a religion? Is it organized religion? There’s people that say, “I’m spiritual, but not religious.” [chuckles] What does that mean?
Dr. Rob: Right. It’s unfortunate that, let’s say, spirituality has become synonymous with belief. People say, “Do you believe this?” According to your beliefs, you’re categorized as Buddhist or Christian or Muslim or something. Now, the belief thing, really it’s more of a cultural expression. It means you bought into a certain idea of how the universe works and what happens to you after you die and those things. Those beliefs really go back to your culture, your experiences, what made sense to you as you were growing up and what you bought into and why you rejected, all those things. That’s not really what we mean by spirituality. Belief is not spirituality. Belief is simply part of your ego makeup that has helped you define yourself.
Debi: Personal conditioning. Basically, we’re conditioned to believe things are a certain way. We’re conditioned to believe and fear God or praise God or reject God, whatever we are– That’s our belief and that actually comes from, like you said, our social conditioning. Then, this idea of the law, like there’s spiritual laws or the laws of karma, for example. They come from, again, what is your perception? You had mentioned when we were talking earlier today about karma, a lot of people think it’s good and bad. Good karma and bad karma. This social system has turned into their own understanding, but karma is not about good and bad, it’s just cause and effect.
Dr. Rob: Just cause and effect.
Debi: Just, only, just the mind.
Dr. Rob: Really, karma is simply the sum total of your actions and thoughts and ideas that you’ve expressed in your lifetime and how that has conditioned you into what you are today.
Debi: Created like an ego that carries all that conditioning.
Dr. Rob: Absolutely. The sum total of who you are right now is your karma, basically. That’s what is meant by karma. The good and bad, I think, was part of– In the West, we were used to thinking of sin and redemption, that you’re going to get punished for your sins and you need to redeem yourself somehow by good works. It’s that idea superimposed on this more ancient idea of karma.
Debi: When we think about the Law of Attraction and we think about this conversation we’re having about religion, actually this New Thought became a religion. Then, what happened is that people didn’t tease out their own person experience with their own Christianity or their own religion that they have, and they were trying to use this other– Basically, it’s taking two religions and putting them together and trying to make a sense of it. I think there’s a lot of people that got lost in it. Then it becomes, like you said, a belief system, and it’s not really the truth.
Dr. Rob: Right. You have said also earlier that people have been using or trying to use these spiritual principles to obtain something.
Debi: Yes. It’s like, “Get the car.” That’s what was the biggest criticism about the secret is that people said, “Oh, that’s all good and fine, but it’s all about getting fancy cars and jewelry and finding a person, and very little about peace of mind.” I remember when I got caught up in it. I started my first hypnotherapy practice. I needed to make money. I was taking those spiritual laws and applying them like, “Oh, I got to visualize and manifest.” I had my money angel and using that to get material things, but then what happened is that it was never enough.
No matter how much money you make or how much success you get, it’s never enough because you’re really just creating from a materialistic place. When the money comes in, then I’ll feel good, but it’s basically using spirituality, it sounds like blasphemy. You’re using the spiritual wisdom to create material things and it’s not the point that was initially created by the Buddhists and the yogis. It’s not about acquiring material well.
Now, of course, there’s the other side, which is the spiritual people that say, “Oh, reject wealth and reject things in the world. You shouldn’t worry about love. You should just be spiritual.” Both sides, again, the extreme of science and spirituality, you also want to make sure there’s a balance there too. I think it’s going deeper in understanding, number one, who’s the one that’s creating and using these principles, and what are the principles that we should be using, and how should we look at the world. [chuckles] Just a couple of quick questions.
Dr. Rob: Recently, we were doing an interview with somebody. It was so funny because they were saying, “I’m glad you guys didn’t talk about abundance.” The way a lot of people are talking about abundance now that, “Okay, just write a $1 million check and put it in your wallet. That’s going to give you abundance somehow.” We’ve certainly grown beyond that. What has helped us understand this is what we call Jungian spiritual psychology. What is Jungian spiritual psychology? It is essentially looking at this need to understand ourselves and our deeper selves beyond the ego, beyond the persona, and to answer some of these questions that are naturally in us.
You talk to a kid and they have the right questions is, “What am I doing here? Who am I? Why is the sky blue?” Like, “What is the nature of myself and what is the nature of the world?” That’s essentially what they’re asking. That’s philosophy. Jung had this idea that if you can’t get rid of those big questions and you shouldn’t try to because it fulfills our roles as human beings, we need to understand them, not reject anything that we can’t see or measure or weigh, like the physical scientist says, but consider that as human beings, there’s more to us than our bodies and more to us than just our individual experience.
Debi: I was thinking too that if you take the Law of Attraction and say, “I’m going to create wealth,” and then you actually create wealth because it works– There’s a law, If you think positive, you’ll get stuff [chuckles] usually. It will show up for you, but you’re bringing with it all the fears around not having it. If you’re an ego, what will happen is the things you do create with this law of attraction will end up inflating your ego. We’ve seen this happen with a lot of people that have had real great success teaching the Law of Attraction, and they crashed, because they believed they were the creator, like their ego was the creator and not the divine. Basically, they ended up having the feeling they had superpowers, but their ego was taking credit for it. They hadn’t done the work understanding who they really are on a deep level and they just rushed ahead.
I always caution people that when you’re using those spiritual laws, you have to understand that you’re not the ego, and that is really the first step, or you’re going to get caught in a trap of chasing things, never feeling satisfied. If you do attract “what you want,” you’re not going to be satisfied. They’re going to be an emptiness and a feeling of, “It’s not enough and I need more.”
Dr. Rob: Well, Socrates said there’re two tragedies in life. One is that you don’t get your heart’s desire. Two is that you do get your heart’s desires. That’s what he meant is that if you do get them, but you’re still caught up in the ego. You’re not going to be satisfied and you’re going to think, “Oh, I thought these things were meant to make me happy. I got them, I have them all and I’m still not happy.” They painted themselves into a corner. The spiritual psychology is really about understanding that deeper process in us, understanding that we’re not the ego and understanding how do we do it? How do we get beyond the ego?
Debi: If we’re not the ego, who are we? Instead of just believing, like you said, in religion where you just read a book, the Bible or some other spiritual book or Think And Grow Rich, and you say, “Hey, I believe this because this person said this or this book says this.” Then you’re really back in religion, but what you want to do is have a direct experience of the truth of what is beyond your ego. That’s really the key. So, one of the ways that the ego operates is survival. Anytime you’re in fear or anytime you need something externally to feel comfortable, to feel fulfilled, to feel happy, you are basically making something outside of you more powerful than you. I call it putting it up on the pedestal.
If you try to use these laws or your spiritual work to get those things, you’re going to be very unhappy. Maybe short-term you’ll feel good, but eventually, if you don’t do the inner examination and free yourself of that attachment, that ego survival attachment, you are going to feel dissatisfied. Jim Carrey famously said, “I wish everyone would be wildly successful, famous, have model wives, drive fancy cars, have mansions, and then realize that that’s not really what makes you happy.” I’m paraphrasing him.
Dr. Rob: Yes. The spiritual psychology, then, is a way to really understand the Law of Attraction, the spiritual laws, even the teachings of the religions in the deeper sense, but understanding them from that deeper part of our psyche, not from the ego. Because it’s like I tell a lot of people, “Yes, you know all those beautiful things that you read about on Facebook and all those spiritual teachers that speak today and teach abundance and possibility. Those things are true, but you have to do your internal work first, then those principles apply.” If they don’t, you’re still on the surface, you’re still creating ego and you’re just trying to add spirituality to the ego piece, to the persona, to the mask we wear.
Debi: You see sometimes people do that. They dress differently and they have to feel like they are super spiritual and they have to talk spiritual and they have this spiritual persona and they have to speak in a quiet voice and forgive everyone and be kind. What happens is that the shadow is building up. If you build your ego on this spiritual ideal, and you’re really doing it from an ego perspective, the opposite goes in the shadow. All the anger, all the desire to do something destructive, all the power a lot of times gets thrown into the shadow and then you’re really just trying to– You’ll get upset and triggered with people, but then you feel like you can’t express your anger because you’re a spiritual person, so you see this showing up.
I remember when I first started doing spiritual work, I felt like there was a judgment of how spiritual people should be. They have to be walking on water and not make mistakes and not hurt people. We’re human and we’re messy with our own emotions and we’re messy with other people’s emotions. You just accept that. Then it’s also accepting that about ourselves is really where we start to begin to move beyond the ego. One of the things that I love about the spiritual psychology and the Jungian model is that we go to the deeper level.
We’re not just talking about concepts of spirituality, we’re actually going and having a direct experience of our spiritual nature. For me, visualization is great, but you still feel like you’re making things up, but in the dream work, it really is a profound experienced to know that there’s a deeper part of myself that is saying, “I’m helping you, Deb. I’m on your side. This is what’s happening.” Reflecting back, it’s like this wiser creative force that’s helping me live my life. We all believe in this higher power, but we don’t realize that we have access to it, direct access to our wisdom.
That’s where I feel that with Jungian work you get to go to that deeper level. It’s not just a concept, an intellectual concept of, “Oh, I have a higher self, that’s not my true self.” What most people call their true self is really a perfect ego one that they want to have, but our true self is all the messiness, it’s all the beauty and all the things we don’t like about ourselves and then all the things that we haven’t discovered about ourselves yet. That’s our true self.
Dr. Rob: Yes. Some people have asked, “Well, why should I do this? I mean, if I’m doing okay or appear to be doing okay, I’ve survived, I’ve made a good life for myself so far. Why do I need to do this deeper work?” It’s really that there’s more to us than just what’s on the surface and building an external appearance of things. Now, we need those things. We’re not saying get rid of those things or push away success and abundance and all that. We need those things to do our work in the world. Really, what the spiritual psychology does, it balances out that life that we live externally with a deeper mystical aspect of our life.
Debi: So you’re not just living on the surface.
Dr. Rob: Exactly. That balance, Jung said, is really a third element that comes into play. What happens when we get in touch with our unconscious mind is it creates a new synthesis, which he called the self, and it’s what people call the higher self. It creates a new sense of ourselves that is both this external, temporary life of cars and computers and work and all this beautiful stuff, with that internal mystical life of the soul, of the spirit. That balance is really what we’re looking for. It gives us a new sense of being in the world where it’s not just about our little ego life, but we’re connected to something bigger. To the cosmos, to the divine mind, whatever you call it. It connects us directly to that source.
Debi: You know what you just said is so powerful, because it reminds me that ultimately, the reason why we’re here is to have that experience, is to have that deeper experience of our spiritual nature. A lot of times we don’t know why were dissatisfied in life. We think, “Well, if I had a better job, or if I made more money, or if I had a kid, or got married, or if I did my TED talk, or became famous and had a bestselling book,” all these things that we try to do or achieve with the Law of Attraction, what we really– Underneath that desire is the desire for this mystical experience. We think it’s in those things and we’re mistaken, and that’s why we’re off the wrong track. If we’re thinking it’s outside of us or it’s in the future, “One day when I get those things, then I’ll have this mystical bliss in my life.”
Now, what I suggest is that we use the things that we desire, the desire to be a bestselling author, desire to have lots of money or desire to have a great partner, as a vehicle to understand our spiritual nature. We can still have those things and still use those things, but they’re in the right place. They’re not there to give us spiritual enlightenment, they’re there to help us realize that it’s already inside of us. So, we can use those projects that we have as a way to understand and open up deeper parts of ourselves.
A lot of times, I remember my life, the one thing– The times that I had the biggest transformation are when the external world stopped cooperating with me. It was like there’s a place, and we all get there, where it’s like, “Okay, the world’s not cooperating right now, I’m not getting what I wanted. I’m stuck.” It forces you to go inward because you can’t get out there anymore. When I broke my– I had my manless, jobless and homeless day, I said I had– I didn’t have a man to go to anymore, I didn’t have a job to go to anymore, I didn’t even know what my purpose was. The only thing I could do was go inward. I was not, and it was the biggest blessing.
You don’t want to get to that point in life, you trying to chase carrots with the Law of Attraction. What will happen is that when you do this work and you go inward, and you see yourself beyond the ego, when you do apply these principles, they happen really quickly. One of the things we tell our clients is that, “Be careful when you do this work because everything gets created faster, at a faster pace. If you stay in ego, you could try the Law of Attraction, it may take you a long time to create something, or you may still hit a wall because you’re still acting in ego, you’re not even having access to all your spiritual power.”
When you individuate, as Jung would call it, we end up having more access to a more broader experience of our power and then when we want abundance, it flows. When we [unintelligible 00:33:30] ready for that great relationship, it shows up. When we have a message that we want to be delivered in a bestselling book, the things, the world will tend to conspire to help us, but if we’re working from ego, it’s like we’re battling this physical world without the resources of our– [unintelligible 00:33:49] in the spiritual work, but we’re not really living a spiritual life.
Dr. Rob: Yes.
Debi: It’s a lot. It’s a big topic, right?
Dr. Rob: Yes. If you have questions on this topic or related topics, please feel free to comment–
Debi: On our Facebook group, Debi and Dr. Rob Show.
Dr. Rob: Yes. We’ll try to do some some podcasts on those topics.
Debi: Yes, I know we covered a lot today, but tying it back to spirituality and science, it’s the same thing. Materialism and spirituality, we need both. We are here not to flow on clouds and dance with unicorns on rainbows, although that would be fun in dreams. We’re here to live and have full human experience, to feel pain, to feel love, to feel passion, to feel orgasms, to feel the sadness and grief and joy and newness and the gamut of being a human being.
We don’t want to give that up for spiritual life, but we also don’t want to get so overly dependent on these human needs that we forget the spiritual life, and we don’t want to escape the humanity by just being all spiritual. We want to have that synergy, like you said. It is really important. Yes, I’d love to hear your questions about this topic. Challenge us if you disagree, and let us know how this has changed you by going to our podcast Facebook group, and we’ll see you next time on the Debi and Dr. Rob Show.
Dr. Rob: All right. Take care.
Debi: Bye.
Dr. Rob: Much love.
[music]
Debi: You’ve been listening to the Debi and Dr. Rob Show. To find out more about us, you can visit us on our website at debiandrob.com. Also, please don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes or Google Play. We’d love to see you on every show. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope you remember to believe in your biggest dreams.
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