Soul Session: Introverts are the Best Entrepreneurs

Most people feel that they have to be an Instagram star to become successful as an entrepreneur. In this episode, Debra shares her experience building a business as an introvert and why social media is ideal for entrepreneurs who prefer to be less “social.”

Find out how you can get beyond the fear of the imposter syndrome and use your gifts as an introvert to create a successful business because you are naturally driven by intrinsic motivation.

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Soul Session: Introverts Make the Best Entrepreneurs


Intro  00:00

Welcome to Creative Mind Soul Sessions with Debra Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of creative mind, explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality, and social neuroscience in a deep, practical way. Let’s begin.

Robert Maldonado  00:25

Welcome back to soul sessions. 

Debra Maldonado  00:28

Yes, our weekly soul sessions every Saturday.

Robert Maldonado  00:30

Yeah, and we’re continuing our series on

Debra Maldonado  00:35


Robert Maldonado  00:36

Yeah, the psychology of entrepreneurship. But we’re interested in you, lady, and in your story. And you know, what that tells us about women entrepreneurs and successful women entrepreneurs, and particularly, and this idea of introversion, that a lot of misconception out there, people think, if I’m an introvert, there’s no way I can put myself out there and be successful. Right, the best I can do is hide behind my desk, my computer, my books, my books, and, you know, maybe work for somebody else. So let’s, let’s talk about that. Let’s dispel the myth. But before that, let’s review a little bit where we’ve been. So we kind of identified his rebellious ness knew from early on.

Debra Maldonado  01:37

That I need to go into the mass mentality.

Robert Maldonado  01:41

Yeah, there’s a restlessness Yeah, of wanting to do something beyond what the scripts that are handed to you. Like, here you go. Follow in your father’s footsteps or in your mother’s bus? Yes. And, and become a good wife or mom settled down in New Jersey? raise some kids grow some kids. Yeah, there’s a there’s a restlessness, they’re wanting to do something else. Then we talked about kind of how this you almost all successful entrepreneurs go through a dark night of the soul? Something challenging something difficult that they have to change, and and face. That the kind of proves to themselves that guess that they can they can handle the difficult things. Because being an entrepreneur is, let’s say, compared to working the nine to five corporate position. It is risky, in a sense, you’re, you’re having to take some risks. That you might not have to, if you’re working a nine to five. 

Debra Maldonado  02:56

Yeah, you’d have to definitely be responsible for your own destiny. Were in most nine to five. I mean, you have to kind of show up for work. But it’s not all on you to make sure everyone gets paid in the company and how much you know, that if you don’t work hard enough, like I think that worker mentality is if I just do my part of the job, I’ll get my paycheck for an entrepreneur is if I do my job and do it well, and then like five other jobs at the same time, and do those well, then I could have a successful business. 

Robert Maldonado  03:27

Yeah. And right now, you know, we come to the President, it’s, of a lot of women. And men are now forced to become entrepreneurs in a way. Because of the changing markets. 

Debra Maldonado  03:45

Well, every time there’s a downturn in the economy, there’s a rise of entrepreneurship. Yeah, because people get laid off. And then they say, Well, I gotta do something, I gotta get my take control of my destiny. And so this happened, actually, during the Depression. More entrepreneurs and millionaires were created at that time than almost any other time in history. I mean, compared comparatively now, in million dollars at that time, because the most people in a downturn will follow the masses of woe is me. You know, just kind of wait it out. But those people like me that are restless and innovative, say there’s an opportunity here. Exactly now. And what I noticed too, even just recently, with the pandemic, I saw a lot of coaches just say, Oh, I don’t know if not our coaches, but other coaches just kind of what was me, there’s no you know, the economy’s going. And the only time I can be successful is when everyone’s buying but that opened up a whole market for people who are still out there doing the work and putting themselves out there and their people always need personal growth. And it actually times of struggle, especially now. The mental health industry with the stress of the election and the virus.

Robert Maldonado  05:05

People are stressed because of an election. 

Debra Maldonado  05:07

I know can you believe it? And the virus and everything that’s going on in the world, the mental health demand for mental health is has never been higher. And I believe that life coaching is really a key for people that are functional. They don’t necessarily need therapy, but they need to talk to someone. They need to work on themselves. They need to find that balance within themselves. So there’s so much opportunity at any time, but most people don’t take advantage of it. And that’s a true entrepreneurs to be able to see that.

Robert Maldonado  05:37

So let’s talk about this, this idea of introversion extroversion. Well, perhaps we should define it in the context that we’re talking about it.

Debra Maldonado  05:46

Yeah, what I just really underscore the fact that when we talk about introversion and extraversion, or anytime you do a personality test, whether you do Myers Briggs, or you do our persona test, or you do the the Big Five test, it’s really measuring your persona, your conditioning. So when you take personality tests, and I see people do enneagram, and all these other things that’s out there, you’re really measuring your egos persona, not really who you are, that’s beneath that. So I would just want to say, if you score as an introvert, that doesn’t mean that’s who you are on a deep level. That’s, and I’m going to share why because I’ll show you my story. But and then so the introvert as a persona. 

Robert Maldonado  06:32

Yeah, and the Jungian sense, what would be an introvert?

Debra Maldonado  06:35

An introverted in the Jungian sense is their personality, it’s like the default personality is to be more internally focused. And kind of more self. Kind of like self reflective, versus, you know, Jung says that the introvert is like more subjective. And they see the objects out there. And they figure out, they wonder, what do I have to do with that object? They’re more inquisitive about themselves. And then the extrovert is the opposite. They see themselves as a fixed object. And then the world is a fixed object, and they’re just moving stuff around. They’re just like, I’m an object, and they’re LED, but really more by the world, versus the introvert is more what does this mean about me and kind of like more thoughtful and thinking? Now, of course, there’s always a spectrum. So we also want to say that when you have the introvert extrovert, you have a little bit of both in your persona. But if you predominate on the introvert, it means that your shadow is those extroverted qualities.

Robert Maldonado  07:37

Yeah, it’s been a long time since I read Jung’s work on introversion and extraversion. But I remember him saying, pointing out Gandhi, he says, There you have an individual’s capable, obviously of being very introverted because he would meditate and go into ashrams for weeks and kind of meditate, kind of very inward looking. But then he was able to go to Parliament and argue his cases and you know, kind of protests in the streets and just be very out there.

Debra Maldonado  08:10

An inspirational leader, but he wasn’t necessarily driven by does everyone like me? And how do I get everyone to like me. He was like, self directed.

Robert Maldonado  08:20

Yeah. And also, when we look at the big five personality test, which we’re going to talk about, you have to look at that scale of introversion and extraversion in the context of the other domains that that the test measures.

Debra Maldonado  08:39

And again, it tests your default. And if you take the test, over time, you can actually change your answers. I think that’s one of the biggest misconceptions about personality tests. You think that’s who you are. So everyone locks in to a personality and if you run your life around, personality type, you never grow. You never, because I really was a very introverted child. I wasn’t the popular cheerleader.

Robert Maldonado  09:11

What about when you started your business?

Debra Maldonado  09:13

Exactly the same thing. I mean, one thing, the reason I wanted to talk about this subject is because some of a lot of our clients and that that what I’ve noticed about people take our coach training is they’re not those big, you know, loud personality, like you see those coaches out there that are like, you know, jumping up and down and, you know, being very, very kind of bold. They’re more thoughtful. They’re more they like to read, actually. They like to spend time within themselves. They like to look inward. And I was reading a Jung, something about Jung a couple of months ago, and I saw that someone had mentioned that Jung realized that most of the people that saw his work were introverted, more introverted than extroverted. And I said, Wow, that’s interesting. And because this is why we do this work, because we are attracted introverts. And I think there’s this misperception that if I’m an introvert, I can’t put myself out there. And so I, you know, I really realized that, wow, looking back, I was very shy. I was not the type to be loud in the office and very outgoing. I mean, people, I was friendly, I was social, it wasn’t like a wallflower. And again, this is a spectrum, you know. You can be really introverted and really extroverted. But most of us kind of fall in the middle. And then we have our kind of preferred way. And for me, I remember when I first started my first business before you and I work together, my girlfriends, were all going away to bail, which the nickname for Vale is male. And I was single in Colorado, and they were going out partying, Fourth of July weekend. They were saying, Hey, we’re gonna go and we’re gonna meet guys, and we’re gonna party, you know. And I said, you know what you guys go, I’m gonna stay here. And I’m going to write my book. And that’s where I wrote my first love in my draft of Let Love In. And I was perfectly happy, being in my own little cubby hole, reading and watching some movies and taking time for myself. And it was much more comfortable that way, then I was out, like trolling the bars and being like, Hey, how you doing and, you know, it’s just not my style. So then when I thought about starting a business and putting myself out there, I thought, well, I got to go to all these networking events, and I got to meet people. And I got to put myself out there. And yes, I did that. But I noticed that my style wasn’t like, Hey, everyone looked at me. It was more, let me make personal connections with people. Let me talk to people, I always felt more comfortable with a one on one, which actually served me better, because it’s that loud person, sometimes that doesn’t really listen to people, and they’re not thoughtful. And so I thought that was interesting. And then another thing that was a benefit of me being introvert, is that being online. I think a lot of people think that if you’re an introvert, you can’t put yourself out on social media. You’re going to be more shy, and that only these loud people are out there big, you know, splashy, flashy people. And you can and a lot of coaches tell their clients to be like that, be out extraordinary, and stand out and be ridiculous. And that wasn’t me. And I never followed that advice. And I felt like, it was easy as an introvert to be in front of my computer and actually do the marketing in my house, than being out there like pounding the pavement. And so I found that there were really some real benefits to being an introvert. And then through the process of me building a business and putting myself out there, I feel like I balanced my extraversion part because as we know, whatever the persona is, the opposite is in the shadow. So I was able to integrate some of these things. And one of the biggest challenges was putting myself on television. Remember how nervous I was when I would I would get so like, ah, but part of me was like happy that I always get to share this information. And so through that challenge of like, facing my fears, I felt like I integrated some of that extraversion. And even in the television studio, there isn’t an audience there. It’s just you and two people in a camera just like now. So it’s not like you’re really need to be that extroverted. And so there’s like this idea that you have to be bold, you know, out there and, you know, wild and loud to get attention.

Robert Maldonado  13:45

Well, wouldn’t Jung also say that if your persona is introverted, that the extraversion is in your shadow? You pushed it away into the unconscious. And so as you become more conscious, you would be able to perform as an extrovert.

Debra Maldonado  14:04

And I’ve always wanted to be, so I would I remember being like in school. I was shy, the brainy girl. And I would always like look at the cheerleaders and look at the, you know, the popular girls and say, like, every every romantic comedy high school, I was the nerd that transformed. And I would just be like, wow, I wish I could be like Becky or Mary. They’re so like bold and they’re so popular. But at the same time, I was afraid of it, all that attention. And so through this work of becoming my true self, I was able to integrate and be more extroverted. So if you look at me now, you would say Debbie’s not an extrovert. A lot of people are surprised when they hear that I’m an introvert, but you want to have the choice. So we have this default that we’re conditioned of the introversion or extroversion, whatever worked well for you and in adapting to your life. And I think, naturally, we have like instinctively, before we were even born, we have some kind of gene for it. But individuation helps you balance those two sides, and then you’re able to put yourself out there. But I do believe that I would rather be an introvert and integrate the extrovert because you already have the skills to look inward and you already are more self aware I think than an external person. You’re thinking more in your mind, and more imaginative. I find that introverts are highly imaginative because they’re kind of in their fantasy land. I was always in this fantasy land. And look, I have a very rich dream life. And so very, very cool. 

Intermission  15:43

Are you looking for a satisfying career that has meaning and purpose? Are you seeking a path of growth, and wish you can have it all in one program? Well, our Jungian Life Coach program does just that. It gives you a new career as a certified life coach, as well as take you through our jungian methodology to help you become your true self and make amazing transformation in your life and the lives of others. So visit Jungianlifecoach. com. Click on Apply and speak with me, Debrah directly, so we can discuss your future and possibilities and becoming a certified life coach. That’s jungianlifecoach.com.

Robert Maldonado  16:33

Well, personality studies is a whole different. It’s a whole school in psychology, and there’s a lot of debate as to what the personality is, you know, is it a state or a trait? Do you have a this collection of traits that you kind of pull out when you need to? Or is it a real state of mind that you you’re kind of stuck with? I think Jung would certainly see them as traits that you can kind of work with and alter.

Debra Maldonado  17:06

The more conscious you are, the more you can direct when you express certain traits.

Robert Maldonado  17:10

Yeah, absolutely. Because again, if it’s the persona that you’re measuring, he saw this as a mask as a role that you play as a social function. And so you, yeah, you can definitely alter it. And you do see people that metamorphosis, right, and especially in our work, we’ve seen people that come in one way, you would say, though that this person could never be a coach. I mean, they’re just so shy or so introverted. But then they come out of their shell. They become somebody else.

Debra Maldonado  17:44

That’s why I feel like that a lot of our clients come in very introverted, and then they come out with this new sense of confidence. You know, I used to work in the entertainment industry, and a lot of the entertainment industry, a lot of the speak celebrities are very introverted. And you may not know because they go on stage, and they put on their persona. A very famous one, Beyonce, she has this alter ego. Her persona’s called Sasha Fierce. And she’s painfully shy and very prudish. And Sasha is her basically her shadow that she wears on stage. And she becomes highly sexual and outgoing. And then off stage, she’s another person. And I think when we become entrepreneurs, we do kind of have to put on that celebrity persona to create it to basically perform in a way, but we don’t have to make ourselves all of that. And Whitney Houston, I met, that’s showing my age, back in the 90s. Very, very shy. You would see her on stage, and she would be so dynamic. And I met her and she was just very like, but you said it might be the heroine that she was taking on.

Robert Maldonado  18:58

That wasn’t me.

Debra Maldonado  18:59

But anyway, but we see these people and what people put out there a lot of times isn’t who they are. And so for me when people say I’m so extra, I’m extroverted on my videos, and I’m out there. It’s really not. It’s not like the real me. You know, it’s kind of like, not my I mean, I guess it is authentic. But it’s not my natural state. My natural state is to be more quiet and thoughtful.

Robert Maldonado  19:26

Yeah, right. Yeah, so. Oh, yeah, I think I had a reverse. So the state would be more that it’s temporary, is passing, right. Whereas a trait would be more permanent. So let’s talk about the big five because you took this test recently.

Debra Maldonado  19:48

You’re going to reveal my test results.

Robert Maldonado  19:51

Well, again, because this is recent. So it would show essentially, where you are now. And obviously you’re not that person that was starting your business 15 years ago. So I think if he would have took it at that time, it would have shown something different.

Debra Maldonado  20:12

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Robert Maldonado  20:14

So some of the some of the, the traits that it measures is extraversion. And again, keep in mind, this is a scale so it just says extraversion. So if you’re low on extraversion means you’re an introvert. And you scored a 90 percentile, meaning you scored to be if you had 100 people score, you would be in the 90 position. That’s pretty high.

Debra Maldonado  20:44

It shows the transformation of my ability to not be afraid of being extroverted.

Robert Maldonado  20:52

Not be not be constrained. Now in that regard, the other one is, well, here it says emotional stability. But this scale is called neuroticism. Are you neurotic?

Debra Maldonado  21:10

So someone who’s like constantly worried and kind of afraid all the time and emotional and like, yeah, they get triggered a lot.

Robert Maldonado  21:19

Yeah, it’s a collection of kind of little peccadilloes where you’re afraid. You have phobias about this and that you’re anxious, nervous. You don’t want to get up on stage. Perhaps you’re uncomfortable speaking in front of people, those kind of things.

Debra Maldonado  21:41

So I scored the lowest on that one, but still high 74. But I do have, because of the previous introversion conditioning, I do get nervous before I speak. I do. You know, I do. I can be very emotional. And so sometimes I get triggered. Yes, I do get triggered. So I think that’s where that stands is that sometimes I feel like I get stressed out a little bit, sometimes more than normal.

Robert Maldonado  22:11

Well, emotional stability. I mean, this is putting it as emotional stability, which means you’re good on emotional stability. Definitely 75th percentile is excellent. Right here. 

Debra Maldonado  22:24

You’re right, I wanted to get 100.

Robert Maldonado  22:28

And then agreeableness, this scale measures, like, whether you like people, and whether you’re likable?

Debra Maldonado  22:38

Yeah. And that scored high 87. And that’s, again, I think, because an introvert is more concerned, like more empathetic. I think they kind of can, for me, maybe it’s not the introversion, but for me, it was like, I always put myself in other people’s shoes. And so I think that’s part of that. Where an extrovert is more about me, me, me, and I got to get all the attention. And for me, it’s like that balance of, you know, you’re caring how people treat you, but you’re also caring how you treat people and like people. You might sound defensive.

Robert Maldonado  23:18

That’s right. And again, all these can be transformed and worked on and improved if you take this test, which we recommend you do.

Debra Maldonado  23:29

We’ll post a link to the Big Five after we’re done. But yeah, so agreeableness is high.

Robert Maldonado  23:34

Yeah, and then conscientiousness, which I think for an entrepreneur is really important. Conscientiousness means you’re able to follow through on your plans and organize yourself enough to get it done to get the job done and to kind of discipline yourself.

Debra Maldonado  23:57

We’re self motivated versus waiting for someone to rescue you. Right? You’re self driven.

Robert Maldonado  24:07

Yeah, definitely, self efficacy would be a part of that. That you not only have a vision, but that you feel that you can achieve that vision, right, that you can do this, and that it’s important enough for you to do this.

Debra Maldonado  24:25

And I think that when we think about evolution, sometimes people will come into our training or become entrepreneurs I work with, and they’re just starting out and they have that kind of doubt. But through the process of starting your business, taking those steps, you build that self efficacy. You build that confidence in yourself because you’re you’re sticking to it in your committed and there’s something that happens within you. As you get into that habit, you start to transform and you start to become the person who’s more conscientious. It’s not like oh, I’m going to I’m not like that. And I’m just, you know, that’s all there is. It’s you can actually create that commitment to yourself. And entrepreneurship, I mean, for me, I had to I mean, I was laid off. I had to start a business. I had to, like, make it work. But I had it in me, though. I think naturally to do that to stay committed to what I wanted.

Robert Maldonado  25:22

Yes. And then the final one, the fifth one is openness. And openness has to do with intellectual ability and imagination. So creativity, it is very much about creativity. That’s right, imagination, the ability to imagine and have a vision of what you want to do. And in combination, of course, with conscientiousness, that’s an incredible combination. Now, I have to say I do not see this often that a person scores high on openness, which is creativity and conscientiousness, which is more like the business savvy kind of structural, disciplined way of being. So if you have both, that is an extra plus for an entrepreneur. Right? Because now you not only have imagination and creativity, but you’re willing and able to produce it, to finish the project, to make it a reality.

Debra Maldonado  25:27

And I think there is, well, you can develop conscientiousness, but I also think you can you can cultivate openness and imagination by doing the individuation, going through the individuation process because you have to look inward. A lot some people have a hard time visualizing. They say I have a hard time visualizing or being creative. And you can cultivate that. There’s ways you can cultivate creativity by learning to go inward by learning to, you know, we have this meditation that we teach our coaches about how to help your client be more creative. And so it helps the client get in touch with that faculty because we all have both sides of the coin of persona and a shadow. So if the persona has one trait, we always have to think that there’s this other aspect of our ourselves that’s in the shadow that is a complete self. And so there’s this unlived self as this shadow is that we can integrate into our personality. And that’s where I feel like I’ve become more creative. I mean, I think that this work has brought out more of my creativity. 

Robert Maldonado  27:36

Are you sure you weren’t cheating on this?

Debra Maldonado  27:39

I don’t know. Maybe I’m just so smart that I knew how to answer the question.

Robert Maldonado  27:44

But let’s say again, because Jung would say, well, the imagination really comes from the unconscious, right? The unconscious is the one that gives us these dreams and visions and images. So you’re not, 

Debra Maldonado  27:57

It’s more open to the creative. 

Robert Maldonado  27:59

Yeah, it’s more that you’re looking inward instead of depending on kind of your reasoning to figure things out. But, yeah, it would be interesting to measure people before they do individuation on the scales. And then as they go through the process, and then afterwards, like once they finish the programs.

Debra Maldonado  28:25

And also not get too hung up on your original score. Because we had our coaches, our graduates in our graduate program, we had them take the test and then Rob gave them tips on what they can do to cultivate the other aspects.

Robert Maldonado  28:42

Yeah. And a lot of people come with previous test scores, right? They’ve done the Myers Briggs or other personality tests, but the way they they were instructed, they believe that these things, these scores are telling them something solid about themselves.

Debra Maldonado  29:03

And we all have a default personality that was cultivated through conditioning. And that even Jung said, later on in life, he really regretted having that introvert extrovert feeling thinking process because he said, Every individual is so unique that you can’t possibly put them in one category. And then what happens is people do identify as that category all the time, and then they’re not free to really become all who they can be. And so that’s why when we do the persona, feminine persona test, we always tell people, you have all four of these personas persona types. And we want to integrate them all. We want to, you know, kind of be the whole complete woman versus just the condition woman that you learn to be. And exactly with this as well, that you have to see this is just the starting point. This isn’t the end point. This isn’t good. And don’t you think too, that people tend to read their personality and go this makes a lot of sense. And they think, Well, it seems it makes a lot of sense. It must be right. And that’s who I am. And there’s nothing I can do about it.

Robert Maldonado  30:07

Yeah, a lot of people misuse personality tests and all kinds of tests really in the wrong way. They’re more like suggestions about what’s going on in your internal psychology, instead of real measures of this is who you are and this is what’s going on. In assessment, which I was trained in, I did some so much assessment. You never base any of your findings on one particular test because it’s only one particular angle, looking at the psychology of the person.

Debra Maldonado  30:44

And in that state of mind when they took the test. 

Robert Maldonado  30:47

That’s right. And so you use a lot of different information. And then you use your clinical intuition also that, once you have the data, once you look at it all together, you’re still free to really evaluate this based on your understanding of the person, of the individual that’s there.

Debra Maldonado  31:08

And then we talk about the four personas. And we have a test of what kind of coach you would be if you had a persona. And what’s really interesting is that I think the mother and the mother and the mystic are more introverted, and I think the lover and the professional are more extroverted, tend to be. But, again, we are a lot of different things. And there’s people that are very outgoing in their family in this small circle, they could be the life of the party. And then you put them in a corporate environment or big party with strangers, and they’re like, sitting there by the side. If you notice, like Rob and I have gone out to dinner with some of my friends, who are more extroverted. And Rob is like, you’re so quiet. You’re quiet. You’re so talkative normally, and then you’re so quiet around, like I’m more quiet around people that have big personalities. I tend to go back versus compete. And then other people that have big personalities tend to compete with the people. And so, you know, I’ve worked with people who are very outgoing, very extroverted, and they have a hard time meditating. They have a hard time just sitting. And a lot of them say they’ve never even meditated before. Like, I don’t know what that is. I don’t know how to do that. And so having that introversion can really help. At least you’re starting from a point of inside internal looking back. So you can create personality personas to express yourself as a coach or in your service business. What you do, create products, be a brand ambassador and still not, you know that you’re using the persona in a way that’s conscious versus letting the default persona drive your life.  Yeah. So we’re not going to let you get away that easy, though. So let’s put you back in the beginning when you were starting your business and you didn’t have these excellent scores that you cheated on.  I probably was poor or scored very poorly.

Robert Maldonado  33:24

You were more introverted. You were perhaps not so sure of yourself.

Debra Maldonado  33:29

And probably my emotional stability was probably a lot lower.

Robert Maldonado  33:33

Maybe a little bit more neurotic.

Debra Maldonado  33:34

Scarry or neurotic? Yeah.

Robert Maldonado  33:39

How did you pull it off? How did you develop the will to take action to take that risk?

Debra Maldonado  33:47

I think like any journey, like any hero’s journey, that the hero is not prepared for the journey. The hero’s thrust into the journey. And along the way, he developed skills. And I think that’s for everyone that wants to become an entrepreneur. So I didn’t have the skills of how to organize a business or sales skills or skills of a sale, kind of going out there and networking. I didn’t have the skills of how to do a video or how to conduct a class and organize my ideas. I didn’t have all those skills. I just knew had a lot of ideas. But they weren’t organized. And through the process of just putting, trying and putting myself out there, I learned them. But you know what? It was the one thing that drove me to face that challenge and not be saying, Oh, this isn’t for me. I can’t do this is I was driven by a higher purpose. And I felt like this was my purpose. And even though it was challenging and tough, and I had to stretch myself and really, really become someone else. The real me basically, not hide. There were times where I really wanted to hide. You know, I was like, This isn’t for me. I remember my first TV interview, I was like, freaking out. I did a talk once in, I can’t remember what I think it was, some kind of a writer’s club. One of my clients, I was a hypnotherapist, and she goes, Oh, you know, there’s this big writer’s conference. I’d like you to do a talk. And I was terrified. I wasn’t how am I going to do this, but I did it. And I was so scared, and she walked up to me, she goes, we’re not going to shoot daggers at you. We’re not going to throw darts at you. Just speak. And it was really fun. But it’s like, you got to work through those hurdles. And for me, I was so passionate about what I knew and what I wanted to share, that that was stronger than my fear. And I think that’s the key. And through facing your fear of being someone else, if you’re working, it’s like that threshold between the persona and the shadow. You open up to just more power of yourself and more aspects and facets, I guess, of who you are.

Robert Maldonado  36:04

Yeah. So I’ll ask you what a lot of clients and students ask is, how do you know what your purpose is? How do you find that?

Debra Maldonado  36:16

I always say that it’s what we love that we spend time, but what we love should be what our purpose is. I mean, on a spiritual level, our purpose is to know who we really are. But we’re all born with a unique purpose. I think that we’re all born with something that we’re just naturally, not in a conditioned way, but something really innate in us that we just comes really easy for us. Or we’re really fascinated by — if you look at the groups on Facebook, there’s a million groups and everyone has their specific thing that they’re interested in. And so that was really my — I knew I’d love to write. I knew I love to use my imagination. I love to visualize. And then when I started doing personal development, I fell in love with psychology. And it was like it found me. And I remember thinking when I was in the corporate world, if I could spend, if I could work and or have a ritual, at that point I just said, didn’t even think about my own business. If I just had a rich husband, I would just go to personal growth workshops every week. That was your purpose. That was my job. Well, now I just was like wanting to do personal development all the time. Like it was just something, I just love to read about love to learn about myself and psychology. And it was something I was so passionate about that I couldn’t get enough of. And, you know, there’s people that read these self help books, and they’re like, Yeah, kind of they’re like dabblers. But I was really into it. But I didn’t realize that, oh, I can make money doing what I love. And that’s where, when I found at first, you know, hypnotherapy and then coaching, really it fueled my passion for self knowledge. And also understanding the psyche and the human condition, that to me was fascinating. So I couldn’t work and do numbers and work as an accountant. And I couldn’t do, like, I’m not into fashion. I mean, I try to dress nice, but to me, fashion isn’t like I’m so passionate about that. Or, you know, some people are really passionate about art and drawing. I can’t draw for anything. But I know I’m passionate about personal growth. And that’s why I think what drove me to be successful is what I was meant to do. And a lot of people have said that to me, a lot of clients over the years say you’re born for this. And I do remember as a kid feeling this sense of wanting to figure things out, you know, like having that sense of I want to know how the world works. I was also, when I was very little, I remember thinking, I want to do God’s work. Well, I was raised Catholic. I’d go to church, and I love the idea of spirituality. So it was like, of course, look what I’m doing now. It’s spiritual psychology. There was something that was very interesting, different from my siblings because my siblings were like, Oh, my God, I love psychology or, you know, they all like different things. And so it’s interesting that we find that kind of special part of ourselves that lights us up. And then if you can make that your business, and I also think, too, that this is a really important point. There’s a lot of people that want to be coaches because they think, Oh, I can make a lot of money being a coach. But if you really want to be a successful life coach and really do the deeper work with people, you’ve got to love personal development. You’ve got to love learning about psychology. You’ve got to love learning, not just tell me how to market myself. And I see a lot of coach trainings. All they talk about is how do you market yourself and nothing is zero about like the process of someone really doing their personal growth. And so that’s why I learned. You’ve gotta love people too. Yeah, you’ve gotta love people. There’s a lot of them that, I mean, I’ve been in many, many masterminds. A lot of seven figure coaches, and they’re all, you know, they talk about how to have these big numbers and you don’t have to do private anymore. And you just get to like, you know, be. Your business runs on autopilot. And to me, that’s not what I was meant to do. I love doing one on one coaching. I love talking to people. And that’s why are we do a lot of intimate work. Maybe we didn’t make a bazillion dollars overnight because I do love that intimate relationship. And that’s really, I think, right for someone who wants to do life coaching. That I think if that’s their purpose, you should really love, love people, love to learn about yourself and grow yourself. I think that’s really important.

Robert Maldonado  40:43

Yeah, I think you taught me this. One is that personal development precedes business development. Personal Growth

Debra Maldonado  40:52

precedes business growth.

Robert Maldonado  40:53

Yes. Which a lot of people kind of think it’s the opposite. Then I will have evidence of growth when I get the money or when I become successful.

Debra Maldonado  41:04

Or I’ll feel better about myself when I reached that success. And that success is going to define me versus I get to define me. And the success is a reflection of my self definition. And we see a lot of people fall from grace. They build their persona up on their outer success. And they don’t look inward. And they’re just kind of like moving objects in the world and not realizing they’re ignoring their inner world. And then it has to come to terms, like you have to pay the price. Eventually, something will show up to balance that out. And so you don’t want to do that. You want to build it on a solid ground. And I’m not talking about just changing your persona, the mindset of the ego being more confident. You actually become in touch with these deeper parts of yourself. In Jungian coaching, it’s just such a deeper process. And you let go of those old fixed ideas that you used to be. And then, all of a sudden, there’s this openness to I can be anything I want to be. I remember when I first met you, I said you can be anything you want to be. And as I said, when we joked around with you, and I said you should be funny today, like really funny, and you called me up later that day. And you’re like, you know, I was funny today, like I tried that on. And so we can really just, we’re not limited to how we were conditioned what happened in our past and a personality tests that tell us who we are. We are unlimited. But we also have to remember there’s certain parts of ourselves that are so unique and special that’s beyond personality but just a thing we’re interested in. If everyone had the same individual purpose, we’d not have anyone doing anything else in the world. We’d all be doing the same thing. So we have to have this variety. That’s what makes the world a beautiful place. We have artists. We have people that need to count the money. And we have people that need to be lawyers. And we need to have people that love to teach and be in universities. And so we need to dress pretty, so we need those fashion people and makeup people. I needed a makeup person to show me how to wear makeup. 

Robert Maldonado  43:16

I know a lot of people tell me they’re afraid of success because they’re afraid of losing their friends or and what their family will think of them as they become successful, as they become another person in essence. They’re different, right? The success changes you in a sense? What was your experience around that?

Debra Maldonado  43:42

That’s actually a really good thing. Because I’ve noticed over the years, I have some really good friends that were always friends that no matter, like one of my best friends from first grade will always be friends. And we’re kind of like, we know each other on such a deep level that it doesn’t feel weird. But then friends I’ve made, maybe in work or, you know, kind of these passing friends that were more in a stage of life, I find I have nothing in common with them anymore. And I feel that I just don’t know how to have conversations with people like that. I don’t know what interests you. And so it’s just really interesting how you feel kind of guilty in a way that you really can’t relate to them. They think of you still as the old view. And you’re like different and more evolved, and they’re still stuck where they were when you met, and it’s kind of like not a match anymore. I think this happens in romantic relationships, too. In marriages, you meet someone on a persona level. And if you’re just looking for a persona in a relationship, you’re going to be sorely disappointed after the person or one of you starts evolving and the other person leaves. And I’ve seen this too with women as entrepreneurs. That they were the housewife. They raised the kids, and then they started their own business. And this other side of them comes out. This other group, they start to feel more like that self efficacy, you know, I can make. I don’t have to wait for my husband to pay. And then all of a sudden they start making more money than their husband, and then it makes this funky relationship. And the husband, if he’s wise, he’ll grow with her or he’ll fall away. And so we see a lot, sometimes people get divorce because of that. But thank God for us.

Robert Maldonado  45:31

What about your family members? Did it change your relationship with your sisters and your brothers?

Debra Maldonado  45:38

I think my brother will always look at me as his little sister and really has no idea of who I am. I think my two sisters are much different. They see me who I am. And they, like my one sister follows me on Instagram, everything I post she likes, so it’s like she’s just watching. I don’t know if she, you know, enjoys what we do or just likes it for me. And my mom, actually, really, I think my mom and dad, I had such a transformation with my father and my mom. And then my mom, now we have such deep conversations. And she gets me, like she’s sees me, who I am now. She doesn’t see me as Little Debbie that five year old boy crazy Debbie from the my 20s. She sees and she’s proud of me. And my book signing in New York, I remember feeling really awkward because my cousins that I grew up with, we were like kids playing and now we’re adults. And they’re listening to me talk about inspiration and personal growth. And they all were there at my book signing. And they came up to me, and they were just like, wow, I’m really impressed. And so it was really fun to see. And I think the people that really are I think are meant to be in your life will stay. And then there’s the people that no longer serve, you have to let them go. And sometimes it’s a parent. In some cases, you know, the parent doesn’t approve of the new lifestyle or wants you to be the helpless person. They want to keep you in that dynamic. But it is, I think, for me, I think I’ve inspired people in my family, I think, and my friends to go for their dreams. I’ve sent countless people to my hypnotherapy school over the years. And now they’re becoming coaches, and I just think that it’s never wrong to be who you are meant to be. And it can only encourage people to change themselves. So if we all stay the same, it really feels this hopeless feeling right?

Robert Maldonado  47:46

Yeah. So what would be your best advice for women that are starting out? They have their vision, perhaps, and they’re ready to do it. How can they avoid those pitfalls? Like you said, of kind of losing a marriage or losing their friends or kind of getting discouraged?

Debra Maldonado  48:10

That’s a lot of questions.

Robert Maldonado  48:12

Well, I mean, just so you choose whichever angle you want. But this idea that I’ve seen that people don’t enjoy the struggle because they think it’s all about getting somewhere. It’s all about achieving, instead of really enjoying the process of growth, you know, because when people look back, often the best times was that time that when they were starting out really kind of risking.

Debra Maldonado  48:39

I just got goosebumps when he said that. I mean, I love the success we have and where we live and it’s much different than the circumstances when I quit my job and I moved into, I mean, I wasn’t like in squalor. I lived in a house with — I got a roommate, you know, it wasn’t like a big sacrifice. And I gave up my nice car and I got like a beater car. It wasn’t too bad either. It was an Acura, you know, it wasn’t like, I was used to like the fienst of finest. But I remember just being so excited about being on the journey because I’ve waited so long to do it. I waited 10 years. I moved to Colorado when I was 29. I didn’t start until I was 39 — 40 when I actually graduated, and it was this incredible adventure. It was this like I said, seeing what I was made of. And it was this kind of as if someone took the guardrails off and said, Go on your adventure. And you know, I think the most important thing I remember, the most exciting thing was meeting people like me. When I was in the corporate world, no one really was into personal development as much. I mean, they were. I worked at a yoga company. So some people were, but they weren’t like me. And they weren’t entrepreneurs. And then when I started just meeting printers and making these friends that were up to something big, and it was like, oh, there’s this other world. And so for me, it was very adventurous. And I remember feeling even when I was dating, people were so like, the guys I met were like, wow, what are you doing? You’re starting your own business and just like, wow. First they say, ooh, you’re an hypnotist. Can you hypnotize me, but it was really just impressive. To others that Wow, look at Debbie go. And I remember my bookkeeper, I first started working with her. I don’t work with her anymore. But she was like, I was trading bookkeeping in the beginning for her just to help me with the taxes and stuff. And she did some hypnotherapy, which was totally not something I would recommend anymore. But she worked with me for like the first two years, a few years. And she said, I remember you saying, I’m going to write a book. I’m going to do this stuff. I’m going to make this money. I’m gonna make it on my own. I’m gonna do all these things. And she said, Look at you. You did everything you said you were gonna do?  Did you have a list and you’re checking it off? Done. Well, I remember. One of the guy I dated very briefly, he was worked at the bank. And that’s how I met him. He was my banker. And he said, You sat in my office, and you said, I’m gonna be famous. So I was just like, so excited about what I was doing. And he’s like, do you remember you were so like, I’m gonna be famous. And I was like, really, I said that? But I was just so excited. It was just after living in this limited world for so long. It was like my whole world opened. And I had learned so much about myself through the process of my training about myself and the unconscious mind. I was so excited to teach it that it was just this like ball of energy. And yes, I did have hard times. I did have times where I said, God, it would be so much easier just to get a job. And other times where I was like, Wow, I can’t believe how abundant I am, and how, you know, all the different experiences I got to have. And I got to speak. I got to be on television. I got to write a best selling book. I got to meet the love of my life. From all just me stepping into me. So I say, my advice for everyone is the journey isn’t going to be smooth. But it’s going to be the most exciting adventure of your life. So if you’re up for an adventure, you’re tired of being bored. You tired of getting the same ol same old. It’s really as you grow so much personally. And you have so much more experiences, and you get to decide what your life is. I think entrepreneurship and individuation goes so hand in hand. That’s why we’re so passionate about our coach training all the time because it’s like you get two for the price of one. You get to use individuation in a very powerful way to get your freedom back in the external world as well.

Robert Maldonado  53:02

Yeah, I believe that’s one advantage of being a coach is that you have a personal development system built in to your entrepreneurship already. Whereas, the entrepreneur that’s selling widgets might not have.

Debra Maldonado  53:19

And I always tell the story at ink, the ink women’s summit, Sara Blakely, these other billionaire founders, they said, what was the most important person, most important decision you made to get success? And they said I had a life coach. I had to work on the inside. You always have to work on the inside. So life coaching as an entrepreneur is like butter. And yeah, I’ve learned so much and even in the toughest times. Confusion, confusion of where we should go next. And I always knew that no matter what happened, I’m going to grow from this. And there’s always something good on the other side. And it’s that holding, that idea that it’s only going to give me more life. You know, whatever the struggle is, it’s for me. It’s happening for me. And I was talking about this on our call with our graduates. It’s about your attitude. You really have to change your attitude toward change. You have to have that can do not the can don’t, can’t attitude. You really have to really have that attitude of

Robert Maldonado  54:30

Self efficacy. 

Debra Maldonado  54:31

Self efficacy, excitement, and you are going to have downtimes. And there’s going to be days you don’t feel excited, but you’ve got to keep moving. 

Robert Maldonado  54:41

Did you ever actually quit? Let’s say, once you started, did you ever say or did you ever do it? I mean, I think everyone goes through that period where they feel like turning back. Did you ever actually turn back?

Debra Maldonado  54:56

I never turned back once I started the hypnotherapy and then went to coaching. I did turn back, I went to massage school because I thought I’d be a massage therapist, and I realized I don’t want to touch people because like I was a little anal and germaphobe. I’m like, What am I doing? And I really didn’t. For me, I wasn’t really excited about the body as much as the mind. And then I did a little energy work on the side, but I just felt like it wasn’t mainstream enough for people that they would do it. And then a friend of mine, who went to coaching school, said, What if you try hypnotherapy? And then that’s when I left the corporate job that last time, and I did the hypnotherapy. There was no turning back. It was like, this is it. And I did get distracted. The first year, my coach at the time, told me, You should sell Arbon on the side and make some money. And so I tried to, and I was like I’m not even passionate about makeup and you know, skin products. I’ve used them. And they’re wonderful, but I’m not passionate about talking about them all the time. So it was like it wasn’t a fit. And then I think when we moved to New York, I was thinking, you know, we were kind of starting, I was starting up again. And there was a time where I started looking at marketing jobs, just kind of looking saying maybe I should get something on the side until I start building up my business again. But I hired a coach and immediately went back to where I was. The six figure income I had immediately, like within two months, so it was just having the right person there. And that’s where I really believe that if you don’t have a coach, if you’re not continually growing, you will quit. And I’m talking one on one coaching. I’m not talking about taking courses and being in free groups. And you know, it’s really committing to that one on one that made the difference. I say the worst year, it was when I decided I didn’t need to coach anymore. And I knew my work. And that was the worst year. It was like when we moved to New York, and I was stressed out and I felt confused. I didn’t have that person and guide, and I couldn’t go to you because we’re too close to guide me. And it was just, I needed someone to kind of keep get my head straight. And then I had coaches ever since. And it’s really, really important. And I think people, you know, they don’t realize that, how important it is. And it’s all the inner work. It’s not about tell me how to market myself. That’s great. You could take a course on marketing, but a coach to develop yourself is really very, very important. You have to have, especially the type of coaching, it’s not just motivation and, you know, check in. It’s you’ve got to know what’s going on inside. What’s in the shadow? What’s stopping me? And every external conflict I had was an internal conflict.

Robert Maldonado  57:52

Interesting as somebody’s asking what our picadillo is a thing we mentioned in the beginning. Yeah, so picadillo, the word comes from Latin picado, which is sin, right? So it’s a little sin, a little character flaw in a sense.

Debra Maldonado  58:09

So why are you looking at me? We use that term a lot. I got that from you that picadillo It’s kind of like, oh, they’re nice. But you know, they don’t put the top on the toothpaste or they kind of interrupt me. That’s my picadillo.

Robert Maldonado  58:25

Yeah, little neurotic habit. Little sins.

Debra Maldonado  58:29

So yeah. So I’m inspired, hopefully you’re inspired too. Whether coaching is right for you, or whether you’re thinking of starting your own business or you have and you feel like you’re going to give up, don’t give up. Get a coach to help you. Get a life coach to help you. Because that’s going to make a big difference. A Jungian Life Coach.

Robert Maldonado  58:48

Yeah. And I know we’re going to continue the series, right. So next time, what are we talking about? 

Debra Maldonado  58:53

I have the list over there. I have to get up to get it. 

Robert Maldonado  58:55

It would be nice to to talk about the different coaching that you see out there. Cuz there’s business coaching. There’s love coaching. There’s life coaching, executive coaches. So maybe we’ll talk a little bit about your experience, your experiences with meeting some of those people?

Debra Maldonado  59:17

Yeah, a lot of people think well, if I have to be coach, I just have to help people with their personal life. But really, the Jungian life coaching, you can get that part because everyone has a personal life. They actually did research and they said the executive coaches, 80 or 90 percent of what the executive wants is about their help with his or his personal life or her personal life versus how to, you know, really motivate themselves in the business. The personal life is so important. And this researcher said that most executive coaches are not versed enough in psychology to help that person. So you have a lot of these executive coaches that are trained in motivation and you know, taking action and working with thoughts, you know, just kind of like negative thoughts and positive thinking, but they really don’t understand the deeper levels of psychology that we teach. So you can be an executive coach, knowing this work and actually help people in a deeper way. And every goal that someone has, there’s a personal element to it always there. We’re not just robots, making, you know, there’s a personal life unconsciously that’s creating.

Robert Maldonado  1:00:28

Yeah. And and then, of course, the whole idea of spirituality infused into a coaching model is interesting. Yeah, maybe we can talk about that, too.

Debra Maldonado  1:00:40

Yeah, definitely. So thank you guys, for joining us. The dream interpretation challenge is over, but we’ll still be having the mentors interact with you guys or we’ll try to pop in over the weekend and during next week to answer your questions about your dreams. And the videos are coming down Wednesday night, so make sure you listen to them before they go away forever. And we’ll have another challenge later this month in November.

Robert Maldonado  1:01:13

Yeah, but we’re talking about entrepreneurship and the psychology of entrepreneur. So we’re gonna continue this. 

Debra Maldonado  1:01:19

And so next Saturday. Join us for our next soul session here. Same time 11am Pacific 2pm Eastern. We are going to continue this entrepreneurial series. And don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast so you can make sure you download it on your phone. Creative mind soul session, you can search for it or we have links. We post all the time over social media if you need to find us on Stitcher and iTunes and Spotify and all those places too.

Robert Maldonado  1:01:54

And if you have a burning questions about becoming an entrepreneur or a coach, just post them and we’ll try to address them on our next podcast.

Debra Maldonado  1:02:05

Yes. Thank you everyone. Have a great day.

Robert Maldonado  1:02:08

See you next time. Bye. Bye.

Outro  1:02:10

Thank you for joining us. And don’t forget to subscribe to Creative Mind Soul Sessions. And join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with creative mind soul session. See you next time.

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