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Hamilton – The Musical – A Jungian Perspective and Hero’s Journey

In this episode, we explore how the Hero’s Journey Myth plays out in the story of Hamilton and other archetypal influences that occur in the play. If you are a Hamilton fan, you will enjoy this talk. 

How can you understand your life? What is happening politically in the current climate as to why there is a great battle – a revolution happening in the psyche of America and other countries around the world? What can we learn about Hamilton’s journey, and how can we make the internal changes to face adversarial situations with power and bring freedom and peace?

Episode 20: Hamilton – The Musical – A Jungian Perspective and Hero’s Journey

Transcript

Debra Maldonado 00:03

Welcome to Creative Mind Living, a podcast for personal growth based on the works of CarlJung neuroscience and Eastern philosophies. We’re your hosts Debra Berndt Maldonado, and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind Coaching. Hello everyone, our YouTube channel we are busting in life to talk about a great topic, one of our favorite topics. Hamilton! If you’re not a big fan, definitely check it out. But if you have watched the play in person or on streaming, there’s a lot ofJungian perspectives in it. And so this is really called Hamilton, a Jungian perspective. We’re going to discuss mythology, theater, all the characters and the archetypes that are in this program and it helps you learn a little bit about archetypes and just kind of different things people have to cope with life. Well, it’s the hero’s journey.

Robert Maldonado 01:06

Yeah, it’s no mystery and no secret that both Freud and Jung were influenced deeply, deeply by mythology. So you see Freud’s beginning some of his early ideas with the Oedipus complex, which is a Greek myth. And then Jung just really took it and to an another level, with his idea of the collective unconscious, looking at mythologies and religious ideas all over the planet, and making that connection that there are these archetypal patterns playing out everywhere. Yeah. And then the theater. You know, we were in Athens not too long ago, about a year ago, maybe and we see these beautiful amphitheaters all over the place. Yeah, the theater was a central component of their civilization, and of many civilizations around the planet.

Debra Maldonado 02:13

And also we went to in London, we went to the Rose Theatre where Shakespeare had a lot of it and he was probably a young man with needed know it, all the other characters and the archetypes that played out in his place. So very interesting. So if you’re into understanding patterns and the archetypal patterns is going to be a great talk. So let’s start talking about, I guess the three relationships that define Hamilton and his life’s journey. And those of you who aren’t familiar Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton was one of the founding fathers of the US of America back in the day, but he was kind of had a tragic end died at 47 by a gunshot wound. And this is basically the play of his, his journey to come to America, what he did and how he died. So typical hero’s journey, a lot of times they It ends in tragedy. But what would what do you have to say about it?

Robert Maldonado 03:19

Well, we see that, let’s say, somebody famously said that the function and purpose of art is to disturb. And we see that, that good art kind of makes a ripple in a culture that something’s going on something different is coming up. You know, Jung says that it’s kind of a heads up of what’s going on in the collective unconscious. And so when you see great art like this, it foretells that there’s a big change coming.

Debra Maldonado 03:58

So you’re saying that you believe in Hamilton was great art. Is that what you’re referring to?

Robert Maldonado 04:03

Yeah, the play you see that it has the element of mythology mythmaking. And that that’s really the function of art.

Debra Maldonado 04:13

Is that why we’re so it was so popular because as human beings were conditioned, like we have this mystical aspect of herself to recognize this pure kind of numinous quality that it had. 

Robert Maldonado 04:27

That’s right. It is connecting not only at the conscious level, you’re not only saying, Oh, this is great music and great lyrics are a great staging. But it’s working at the unconscious level. It’s hitting the archetypal elements in in your unconscious mind. And therefore you’re feeling things that you don’t even know exactly what it is. But it’s activating those archetypal patterns in the psyche and so great That’s what it’s meant to do. It’s meant to inspire the deeper elements in the human spirit. So obviously, you know, let’s say a pure rationalist, the scientist might say, well, that’s just imagination human in our in humans are imagining and making up stories. That’s not what art is. And that’s not really what the psyche is. It’s a living process. And these myths, they come through us, you know, we don’t invent them. They live through us and they kind of guide our civilization.

Debra Maldonado 05:38

He basically lived out a myth unconsciously. Most of us do,

Robert Maldonado 05:43

You mean Hamilton or the writers? 

Debra Maldonado 05:46

All of the above. Kind of accessing the myth.

Robert Maldonado 05:51

Yeah, I mean, here we’re talking more about the myth and actual history. You know, if we want to talk

Debra Maldonado 05:57

All history is myth anyway.

Robert Maldonado 06:00

That’s a good point. Absolutely. That it is kind of a myth making activity. But we’re not approaching it. Let’s say we’re not looking at historians and asking them what it would really happen. And can we lay out the pattern, but we’re looking at this play that’s taking place on on a stage, which is an art form. That is communicating much more about what’s going on today. In our world, in our world. In our psyches, not just the historical facts, where it’s communicating something about what’s happening in us.

Debra Maldonado 06:40

The individuation because you being the the journey, leaving the mother, father, King, to become an independent nation. Right, that kind of individuation.

Robert Maldonado 06:54

Yeah. So some of these relationships that we see in the play speak to what’s going on today. So the hero’s journey begins. He’s an orphan, right? Many, many archetypal stories begin this way. The hero is an orphan. He’s raised by shepherds. He’s raised by foster parents. But his real parents are the divine in essence, right? He’s the son or the daughter of a god, I’m not of this world. So there’s always this element of the Divine playing into the hero’s story guiding the footsteps guiding the weaving the the destiny, as the fates doing in Greek mythology. So the first hint that we get is that there’s a big hurricane that changes this course. So now the orphan ends up on his journey right, the hurricane, this chance element of nature

Debra Maldonado 08:03

Sweeps him off.

Robert Maldonado 08:04

Sweeps him away into history. It sets them on the course of his journey. And he ends up in the middle of a revolution. Right? He falls into New York where it’s all about revolution meaning big changes happening.

Debra Maldonado 08:24

Rebellion.

Robert Maldonado 08:25

Rebellion against the authority, the God the Father image of the old king. And in a lot of mythological stories. The King the old king has to die or has to be replaced. Because the old system has worn out.

Debra Maldonado 08:50

People can’t aren’t dealing with the conformity anymore.

Robert Maldonado 08:55

There’s still more creativity. Yeah, it’s stagnated. There’s too much emphasis on public, on static control. And so the hero is bringing in the new seed of creativity, of chance of revolution. And we see that it in this in Hamilton’s story in that now he has the first relationship that plays out on stage is this relationship with Burr. Now you saw it what what did you get from that?

Debra Maldonado 09:33

Well, I knew exactly what they were very different. They were the same. They both came as orphans. Yeah, but they were very different. There was a competitiveness to them. Yeah. And that he was very was more the conformist and the don’t make any waves and does anyone know what you’re thinking? And Hamilton was the let me disrupt everything. Let me speak my mind. Let me be truthful. I don’t care like kind of a recklessness about him. So there are basically polar opposites and shadows of each other. And the Jungian terms that would be they were each other’s shadow.

Robert Maldonado 10:08

Very much so but let’s say from the hero’s perspective, Burr is the shadow. Yes. So the hero’s personality is is the heroic persona. So what is it in the hero’s persona? It’s the everyday man, the the person, it has to conform to society, where, whereas the hero is all about breaking the rules. 

Debra Maldonado 10:37

Leaving the home that he has to leave his wife and kids to go fight the battle.

Robert Maldonado 10:41

And transcend the rules of society.

Debra Maldonado 10:45

And Burr kept saying, I just want to go home to my kids and I want to be with my wife. I don’t want to fight a war. 

Robert Maldonado 10:51

That’s right. Smile more.

Debra Maldonado 10:54

Talk less.

Robert Maldonado 10:55

Talk less. Meaning don’t stand out. Don’t make waves because you’re enjoying your anger. Yeah, he’s he sings a song about keeping quiet and not speaking too loud. Because that will draw the attention of the authorities onto the hero. And the hero is from Burr’s point of view, the hero is reckless, you know, he’s making waves he’s speaking out that song of Why do you always have to assume you’re the smartest in the room? Yeah, you know you’re placing yourself in danger. He’s saying, play your cards close to your chest.

Debra Maldonado 11:40

Don’t let them know what you.

Robert Maldonado 11:43

Yeah, that’s the shadow element of the hero’s journey, right? They’re the hero because he’s a universal figure. He he represents the universe is the universal action. His shadow is that of the everyday man who lives quietly and under the radar conforms, in other words.

Debra Maldonado 12:07

Yeah, and then, so the shadow and the persona are in battle. And if he doesn’t basically come to terms with his shadow, it destroys him.

Robert Maldonado 12:25

Absolutely.

Debra Maldonado 12:27

And it basically, it’s that conformity and the expectation of you have to be a good husband. You have to play by the rules. You can’t disrupt ended up his voice ended up being his undoing because he wrote the papers that talks about his affair and was like, Well, I’m just gonna speak up and instead of conforming and keeping it hush hush, he had to do the opposite. And which actually started last was a loss of power eventually, because he hadn’t gone come to terms with the conformity. Almost like he was rebelling against the conformity.

Robert Maldonado 13:04

Yeah, interwoven in the story is that myth of Icarus, Icarus flying too close to the sun, yes. Flying too close to the sun meaning you’re, you’re trespassing on the gods’ domain, you’re wanting that divine power while still in human form.

Debra Maldonado 13:30

You haven’t done your shadow work, basically.

Robert Maldonado 13:33

And if you haven’t done your shadow work, it will take revenge on you. It will bring you down.

Debra Maldonado 13:41

But in essence, actually the transformation because death is transformation. If you think about bird killing him, he actually tried to take him down. And then what ended up happening is bird became the villain. And he became the hero because someone had to play the role of hero so he actually became the hero in death. And so the wife, you know, did everything she could to build up his name and preserve his legacy. And so in a way that he couldn’t as a live human being so he’s basically became bigger than life, because he transcended the human self.

Robert Maldonado 14:20

Yes, of course we see.

Debra Maldonado 14:23

The ego.

Robert Maldonado 14:24

Yeah we see elements of the sacrifice.

Debra Maldonado 14:27

Yes.

Robert Maldonado 14:28

The Jesus myth. The hero 

Debra Maldonado 14:31

Dying young 

Robert Maldonado 14:32

Dies gives us live gives us his blood for the revolution in this case, but for redemption, meaning for the country, for others, right for the universal soul. So the hero is is sometimes seen as the sacrifice made by the divine so that all can live. It nourishes the community. It provides that mythological energy from which people draw inspiration. Right? That’s where the art comes from, that people see this as, Oh my god, there’s something happening that’s really meaningful to me. I can see it in one person’s story in the hero story. 

Debra Maldonado 15:22

So it’s our own journey that we’re seeing playing out by the actors.

Robert Maldonado 15:26

Yes. And by the by the hero. And so the the second important, pivotal relationship is George Washington.

Debra Maldonado 15:38

Plays the Father. Which is the father archetype? And projecting of that image of this basically the Savior, the godlike image and George Washington definitely carried that in our history. I mean, he was the father of our country, they call them right, the father of our country, big time, and even the other men were the founding fathers and he was part of that, but since he was an orphan, he needed a new father. 

Robert Maldonado 16:04

Since Hamilton was an orphan and Burr was an orphan were both orphan’s. 

Debra Maldonado 16:09

They were fighting over the Father in a way because Burr wanted to be work for George Washington.

Robert Maldonado 16:17

Yes. Which is an ancient archetype. The Father, favoring one son over the other. We see it in biblical stories. We see it in a lot of mythologies, with the twins undergoing this journey together. And they’re in competition in a sense. Then the father chooses one over the other.

Debra Maldonado 16:44

And there’s even a joke in one of the songs where he keeps going, son, and he’s like, I’m not your son, son. I’m not your son, son, I think three times and he was irritated by that. You’re not my father. So they say kind of like wanting that connection, but also feeling trapped in it as well?

Robert Maldonado 17:05

Yes. There’s also the sense of the Father sacrificing the son willingly. You see it in the biblical story of Abraham and Jacob, where God is asking Abraham to sacrifice his son his favorite time in a sense. And in in the Bible, Abraham is not willing to do it or is willing to do it, but then is prevented by the angel. In this case, it plays out as a sacrifice. But the relationship between let’s say Burr is looking for the Father. To give the to give him his mission. Right. He’s asking I want to be a martyr. In other words, I want to die for the revolution for the cause for the people, right to nourish the community, the universal. And Washington is kind of hesitant. You know, he wants him to serve as his right hand, man. Now this is another archetypal image, the right who is at the right hand of God, the Father, Jesus.

Debra Maldonado 18:34

The sacrificial son.

Robert Maldonado 18:36

That’s right. The Savior who goes down into in human form and saves the people, or through his sacrifice saves the people. So there’s all these archetypal elements coming out of the story. Now, most people and maybe even the writer might not see this again, because these are archetypal patterns that.

Debra Maldonado 19:01

He’s channeling or as he’s writing these archetypal patterns.

Robert Maldonado 19:05

Yeah, and great art comes through like that way. Yeah. And the artists will often say, I did not intentionally put these elements in there. They are simply in the right place because they it’s the collective unconscious coming through the great art. And so, the third one, which is the women, the women exactly, serves as what Jung would say, the Anima, the soul of the world. And for the hero, the soul is really important he needs to being in touch and in contact with a soul so that he’s able to carry out his mission. 

Debra Maldonado 19:54

And since he was an orphan, he didn’t have a consistent feminine Anima mother role in his life. So it would make sense that his Anima was split. And he’d had to multiple women. Because it’s like you can’t put all your eggs in one basket basically, because the woman, the one woman you dependent on was gone. So you he learned early on that there’s many women like that I’m sure he had women in the village take care of him and caretakers that he had to depend on many women to survive. And so the idea of putting all his heart into one person would be very threatening and Jung actually had a very similar background. He, you know, they believed that he had a split Anima as well. That’s why he had Tony Wolf and Emma, because his mother wasn’t there for him all the time. It was raised a lot by his nursemaid who had a really deep maternal connection to. And so again, I can’t rely on just one woman. I need multiple women to be in my life to feel secure and so obviously Jung never, maybe he resolved at some at some point. But that’s what that infidelity is that feeling that one woman, it’s scary to have to depend on one woman more like I think a lot of women think oh, they’re just non committal and they’re just, they’re kind of too confident. You know, a lot of women think that men that are unfaithful are super confident, but I see it as more they’re actually very scared to give their heart to one person they have to split it. And so Hamilton, he needed the security of the mother, Eliza, but he also loved the intellect of, of these older sister Angelica and then he had the affair with the other woman. So I say that Eliza represented the mother. The Angelica represented the warrior because she was kind of an independent just like him and he knew that he couldn’t be with her. And the woman that he had the affair with that year. Fair, she was the lover type, she was the mistress. And so he needed all those elements to and then at the end he ended up going to church after his son died and got back with Eliza. And I think that’s where he started to maybe connect with the mystic though Divine Mother and having more mystical experience with the woman. So really interesting, the type different type of women that helped him feel complete because his Anima was split.

Robert Maldonado 22:29

Yeah. And you see that echoing the loss of the son in the pool as the sacrifice of the son. And then he becomes sacrifice as well through his relationship with the shadow, meaning with birth. So the Anima let’s say is a stage of individuation where the hero has gone through transformation already. Now he enters the phase of the Anima meaning the the Soul of the World. He has to integrate his emotions, his unconscious mind to come to terms with it.

Debra Maldonado 23:17

And the sudden death of the son actually helped him get in touch with that and be more emotionally open and available to Eliza because before he was really out there doing his thing, when when that everything fell apart, I he was realizing how lonely he was, like how we yearn for the soul, the heart part. And then when the son died, it was like broken, I think, open to the pain of that. And then he can really be available for Eliza in a deeper way emotionally, to say, wow, I yeah, because I think before he was very intellectual, and more suppressing his emotions and we’re channeling it into action to things he was doing right and the intellect and the words in the writing and just kind of ignoring his I mean, he had a lot of passion, but he didn’t have that tenderness that I think the death of the son brought to him.

Robert Maldonado 24:11

Yes. So it connects him with his Anima, which is the balancing act of the individuation process of the hero’s journey. He has to come to terms with his unconscious mind, otherwise it he remains split. He remains only that eternal boy essentially. 

Debra Maldonado 24:33

Yeah, you actually finally became a man in a way at that point.

Robert Maldonado 24:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado 24:39

And then he made he was able to still be influential in deciding whether Thomas Jefferson becomes president. So he had that kind of, he reclaimed his power a little bit back in his colleagues right before he died.

Robert Maldonado 24:53

Now the shadow of infidelity, what it signifies is is duality between the conformity of marriage right up playing along in society’s standard and the rebellious streak of the hero that he’s breaking the rules. And there there are these undertones of infidelity in not only in Hilton’s affair with the woman, the other woman, but in Burrs also.

Debra Maldonado 25:30

He had an affair with a married woman. 

Robert Maldonado 25:32

He’s in love with a married woman, and then it ends up marrying her I think and then

Debra Maldonado 25:38

Yeah, he does his first wife died. And the second wife, he It was a British soldier had an affair, so it was almost like rebellion against the conformity of the Father.

Robert Maldonado 25:50

Yes. And then finally, you see the showdown with the shadow. But in this case, it serves as the sacrifice, the enactment of the sacrifice, where Hamilton is offered up essentially as the offering to the revolution. And it has to do you know in the story it’s the the political rivalry between these two orphans, meaning the two twins that are

Debra Maldonado 26:22

Looking for power.

Robert Maldonado 26:25

Yeah, that’s a good one. It is the the split between power and ideology. Hamilton representing the ideal of freedom and financial independence, and Burr kind of the seeking for power for powers sake. Yeah. The earthly power.

Debra Maldonado 26:46

Yes, yes.

Robert Maldonado 26:48

And the tragic ending of course of the hero is also a common theme in a lot of heroes’ stories. Where the hero then the blood of the hero is the redemption that he bestows on the world, through blood, through sacrifice. 

Debra Maldonado 27:12

So what can we learn about that in our life? How can we apply this ideas and in a practical way in our life?

Robert Maldonado 27:19

Yeah, again, because these are symbols of transformation. So blood is a symbol for sacrifice. And death is a symbol for transformation, meaning it’s not the end. Death isn’t the end. It’s the beginning of a new stage. It’s the beginning of a new stage a rebirth. Right? In this case, it’s tied in with tied in with the birth of a new nation.

Debra Maldonado 27:46

And now we’re currently going through a lot of disruption. And is that what you’re saying is that we’re rebirthing in a new new stage of our world. 

Robert Maldonado 27:54

That’s right. That we are at a point in history where we have to be reborn. We have to die, or the old has to die so that the new self can be born.

Debra Maldonado 28:08

It seems politically there’s kind of an ideals of the past or pulling back versus the progressives of the future, it seems to be a kind of a battle going on in that sense of let’s go back to being our you know, it was in the 1950s, or this fear of like, kind of really extreme of let’s disrupt everything. And so it plays, I mean that we both need those two, like you were saying they both need to come and fight each other so that we can have a transformation, otherwise we’ll stay in stagnation.

Robert Maldonado 28:44

Well, we establish the danger is to over politicize it and make it just a physical transformation.

Debra Maldonado 28:52

But it’s ugly.

Robert Maldonado 28:53

Yes, talking about renewal of the spirit of the nation. Not not just the politics.

Debra Maldonado 29:01

The soul.

Robert Maldonado 29:02

Yeah, because the politics essays the power structure, but the the spirit of the nation is what’s going on psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. And that is the transformation, then the external structures simply reflect those.

Debra Maldonado 29:20

Because if you think about it, each side is the shadow of each other, and they’re not willing their project. There’s a lot of projection, and not seeing that. We need both consistency and new ideas. We can’t just be all new ideas and no consistency and throw away everything. And we can’t just keep everything the same either. So we have to find a way to integrate. And that’s the only way we’re going to really come together. And I think, you know, it’s over politicized everything and the media makes it so terrible. But if you speak to anyone, I think we all pretty much want the same things. And I think if we had more honest conversations, less fighting, listen more, stop yelling at each other, and start really saying how can we come together? But I think right now the battle is being fought internally, and it’s just expressed externally right now and but the battle is really within our own selves. 

Robert Maldonado 30:17

Well, we’re not in a civil war. Thank God.

Debra Maldonado 30:20

They say it’s a cold Civil War. 

Robert Maldonado 30:22

It is simply freedom. Freedom is not easy. And that’s part of the the message of the mythology that you see these people struggling with ideas from the very beginning. It’s not anything new. Freedom is the most difficult thing because that means you have to really make choices, and not just depend on that conformity of what the king is telling you. Right?

Debra Maldonado 30:49

Yes. Or this is the way we’ve always done it? So let’s do it this way. 

Robert Maldonado 30:53

That’s right. 

Debra Maldonado 30:53

This is what’s always worked, why break what’s not broken?

Robert Maldonado 30:57

So the myth the hero’s myth is always saying it requires dedication, sacrifice, blood, sweat and tears if you want to be free. If you want to be individuated, you have to put the effort in.

Debra Maldonado 31:15

Because if well, and if you’re fighting, you’re fighting what you’re in your mind, you’re the only one who’s suffering. It’s like the idea that the arrow gets shot at you first, but then you take it out and you stab yourself a million times, like we’re kind of hurting ourselves by not taking control of our own mind. 

Robert Maldonado 31:34

That’s right. 

Debra Maldonado 31:34

And in this situation, instead of just staying in projection, so that’s where we’re heading, some transformation, even though it feels uncomfortable that’s where we’re headed.

Robert Maldonado 31:45

Change is always uncomfortable. But freedom does require, let’s say, for us to take responsibility, just like in the individuation process for us individually. We have to reach a crisis point, before we really change. Because we’re almost forced to change. It’s like we cannot persist in the same old pattern anymore. The country, the world, essentially.

Debra Maldonado 32:14

Yeah, there’s a lot of change going on internationally. This is happening in other countries to not just ours.

Robert Maldonado 32:20

That’s why it’s reaching that point of the hero’s journey where it’s forced to change. Now change has to become the way we do things. And it’s an opportunity. It’s only not an opportunity, when we see it as a tragedy, when we see it as an end.

Debra Maldonado 32:42

Or we see it as victims, and we were battling for our lives. But we’re not battling for our lives externally. We’re battling for our soul internally. We’re remembering who we are, and the illusion of all the projections and things that we’re seeing in the world and the fear. And I and really just not to be afraid not to be afraid. That’s the real hero is not afraid. He, well, he’s afraid but he still acts with it. He doesn’t let fear stop him.

Robert Maldonado 33:12

Yep. And so the this myth is coming alive exactly at the time that we needed the most. And so we should embrace this myth. The Founding Fathers, their sacrifices, their ideas of revolution of freedom, that they these ideas must be kept alive, through our blood, essentially, through our sacrifice. Not not literally, not that we have to shed blood, but that we have to dedicate our lives to these ideals. Otherwise, it doesn’t work.

Debra Maldonado 33:53

Yeah. We have to be fully participating in our destiny of our country and the destiny Have ourselves in our own lives and we can’t just ignore it. And we can’t just sit back and complain about it, we have to play the game.

Robert Maldonado 34:08

And one of the biggest lessons that the this work of art really has brought forth is that we need the myths. We need the mythologies, because, you know, before this play, let’s say, people were depending on these hero movies. You know, these Marvel comic movies, and they have elements of the heroes. But it’s not the same. This connects it directly to the nation’s history. People that

Debra Maldonado 34:43

Actually lived and these have actually happened. So it feels more real to us. We’ve all had affairs. Well, not me. But like, you know, human beings. We’ve all had, you know, been around affairs or cheating and power and trying to, you know, get the boss to like us and find the new father or the new mother. Try to deal with our siblings and the sibling rivalries.

Robert Maldonado 35:13

Yes, so the the myths are coming alive or the myth of transformation of the the hero’s journey for all of us, so that we can enact it in our lives. And that’s the function of this great work of art.

Debra Maldonado 35:31

So we want to thank all the people that put it together. And really, I want to say his name, but I know I’m gonna mess it up.

Robert Maldonado 35:41

Lin Manuel, yeah, Lin Manuel.

Debra Maldonado 35:42

Wonderful, brilliant work. It’s just so fascinating. We love the music and just even the choice of putting people of color in the roles because we’re so used to seeing the white family father, founding fathers and to see it from a different perspective. You know, kind of taking out that context and just the talent of the actors and just it was just really brilliant. So amazing if you haven’t seen it yet and you’re interested in Jung, take some notes and definitely check it out. It’s brilliant. We can’t wait to see it live when quarantine’s over.

Robert Maldonado 36:21

Yes. And if you’re interested in Jung’s work and ideas in this kind of context, he wrote a book called The Undiscovered Self. Oh, yes. It’s a short little volume, but it’s incredibly insightful. And it speaks to these kinds of questions that we’re talking about.

Debra Maldonado 36:41

But thank you for joining us. Hope you have a wonderful rest of your day and enjoy the show. See you next time. Take care. Bye bye.