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Subscribe to our NEW Podcast: Creative Mind Living

Please take a moment to subscribe to our NEW podcast, Creative Mind Living…  Search for Creative Mind Living — a Podcast for Self-Development, Personal-Growth, Transformation — in iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, or your Apple Podcasts App, and SUBSCRIBE TO LISTEN. This NEW podcast moves into areas beyond the basics covered in our retired Debi & Dr. Rob …

Making Intuition Work for Your Success & Purpose

In this episode of From The Center, feminine psychology and women’s empowerment experts Debra and Dr. Rob explain the difference between true intuition and a ‘gut instinct’ and how you can make the most of your own woman’s intuition. Debra also shares a bit of ‘Let It Be’ insight from Sir Paul McCartney. Did you …

Personality Tests Are Sabotaging Your Dreams

In this episode of From The Center, women’s empowerment experts Debra and Dr. Rob warn against boxing yourself in or limiting yourself (or others!) with personality tests and assessments. Debra also gives in to her fangirl side and admits her addiction to Game of Thrones and her inner turmoil over the final season.  Did you …

Overcoming Fear and Living Your Potential

If you have tried to change your life but still struggle with getting results, you may be trying to create with fear. You have unlimited potential but there are fears that interfere with your power.

Podcast Episode 59: Overcoming Fear and Living Your True Potential

In this episode, we help you understand how to create from your true nature.

  • Learn the four basic human fears (fear of loss of money, fear of loss of love, fear of loss of health, and fear of loss of life)
  • Why we falsely believe we are the ego and feel separate from our real self
  • The reason why you keep repeating patterns and seeing the same results
  • How to burst the bubble of misperception and start creating as if your success was inevitable


Debi: Episode number 59.

Dr. Rob: All right, we’re finally at close to 60.

Debi: Close to 60, 0 to 60. Today’s my favorite topic. It’s called Fear. Well, it’s not a laughing matter, but it’s something that we should take a little more lightly than we have in our lives. Fear is something that we’re all familiar with. We’re born with it, and today we’re going to talk about how you can overcome fear. The four basic human fears, if you didn’t know what they were, and how to really create with power based on the wisdom of Eastern philosophy.

Dr. Rob: Yes, I think the way to approach it is this really cool model that Patanjali, the great Yogi puts forth. He says, “Essentially, we all start off in ignorance. Not in a bad way.” Meaning it’s just that we don’t know our true nature. We don’t know what we had to do. We start off as questioning where are we? What are we doing here? All that.

Debi: We basically learn about the world through the people around us.

Dr. Rob: Absolutely, and then this questioning, this observing the world around us creates the sense of I, as separate from the world.

Debi: The I maker.

Dr. Rob: Yes, the ego in psychology. Now, this ego again, there’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s caught up in this ignorance. It doesn’t know who it is in essence. We don’t know who we are when we’re starting out in this world.

Debi: When you say who we really are, is limitless potential. We’re connected to everything that we can imagine and things that we even aren’t conscious of knowing. The idea that we are more than just the ego that we’re a spiritual being.

Dr. Rob: Yes, so we have this ignorance, this lack of wisdom about our nature. Then we have the sense of isolation as ego, as ourselves are separate from this incredible universe. Now, if that wasn’t bad enough or complicated enough, then we’re subject to conditioning because of our aversion and attachment. Meaning we like certain things, we want certain things, and we are repelled by other things. That push and pull then of the environment, has a conditioning effect on us, on that I that we are caught up in. That’s the ground floor where everyone experiences.

Debi: Regardless of your childhood, good or bad people, where you were born into, rich family, poor family, middle-class family, everyone deals with this.

Dr. Rob: Yes. That’s the ground of our existence, in essence, our biological existence. Then we get into what prevents us from knowing that deeper knowledge about ourselves. Some people talk about blocks, but well the Kleshas translates as hindrances. What are the hindrances to our awakening? One of them is that fear. The basic fear that we have of losing our life, and we cling to it. We think if something happens to this little ego, I, I’m done for.

Debi: Well, you had said to me, and you mentioned this many times, “As long as you have a body, you’re going to have an ego. You’re going to see yourself physically separate from everything else in the world, and the material or what appears to be material world. It’ll feel separate and that we have our perspective, is coming from within the body that we are trying to protect.” We’re trying to look good. We’re trying to feel good. We’re trying to survive.

We have four basic fears that the ego creates, and everyone has this. Some people have it at certain degrees than others, and it really doesn’t matter, again, what your background is. We all have it. The first fear is the loss of money in a modern world. We had it in ancient times, but it wasn’t money we used. It was bartering or resources or-

Dr. Rob: Yes, I think in ancient times, it would translate as the loss of face. It’s in some cultures, it’s still very prevalent where-

Debi: A status.

Dr. Rob: Yes, status. You don’t want to lose face, because it takes you down a few notches on the ladder.

Debi: Yes, that’s interesting that you say that because a lot of people think they’re really worried about money. When they’re trying to attract money or make more money or be successful, that they think it’s the money that they want, but what they’re really looking for is to look good and have a higher status, and have people respect them or not look bad upon them. Money has a lot entangled in it. The loss of money is one of them.

Dr. Rob: Big time.

Debi: The second one is the loss of health. Again, preserving the body. The weight loss industry is a billion, multi-billion dollar industry. There are so many people that want to have, look good again from a physical standpoint. Also there’s people that suffer from ill health, cancer, a disease, also mental health. We have a lot of this fear of that loss of health.

Dr. Rob: Yes, and the context of this, what it’s implying is that these fears then, prevent us from seeing our true nature, because we’re caught up in them and we think, “Well, if I could only avoid this fear, then I will be fine.”

Debi: Let’s clear our fear.

Dr. Rob: Yes, and so we spend all our psychological, and emotional energy trying to avoid these things.

Debi: There’s another one, there’s the loss of love.

Dr. Rob: Fear of the loss.

Debi: Fear of loss of love. We are afraid of people leaving us, withdrawal of love. That’s how our parents typically disciplined us as children, is they were stern. Even as a baby, they would give us a look that a baby could read that, “You did a bad thing. You’re a bad child.” We want that approval of that authority figure in the home. Then we end up going in relationships. It’s the same thing. Even if someone dies. That loss that that other person gave us something that we didn’t have. With that withdrawal, they’re taking away of what love is.

Then the last one ultimately is the loss of health– I mean life, which is related to health, or dying. The fear of death.

Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s the clinging to the I again. It goes back at full circle. It goes back to the only reason that we have these fears, is because we believe we are the ego, the I. To lose the I for the, let’s say for the mind that is an ignorance of its true nature, is equal to death. It clings to the illusions that the I creates, of separateness, of the world is out there and love, money. Health is out there. I need to chase after it.

Debi: Let’s just review the four fears. The four basic fears are the fear of the loss of money, the fear of the loss of health, the fear of the loss of love, and the fear of the loss of life. I think health and life overlap a little, but I think they are different because there’s a different mechanism that wants us to be healthy and look good and stay young, versus that mechanism that wants based clearly to just not die. To really put ourselves in danger. These fears are on us. If we are, like you said, if we think we’re the ego, they will always be in charge. Why are these fears in the way of us getting what we want?

Dr. Rob: Yes, I think because they lead us in a downward spiral. If you think, “If I’m starting off with ignorance, that is, not knowing my true nature, and then I’m caught up in this delusion that I am separate from everything, which is the I, then the conditioning has its power over me.” In other words, the things that happen to me, are going to determine how I’m going to behave. What am I going to do? How I’m going to defend myself and see the world. That’s a downward spiral into deeper levels of ignorance in a sense. I’m not

understanding, I’m not gaining knowledge, awareness of who I am. The true nature of my mind and the true nature of reality.

Debi: Well, it’s like that idea that our parents had these same fears, and they all have the ignorance. Most parents didn’t grow up in an ashram and with enlightenment, so we have a parent that teaches us this is the way the world is too. We, like you said, the parent doesn’t have to directly say these things. It’s implied. We learn through just watching them and watching how they respond. Then we basically follow their lead of, this is just how to function in the world. Then we end up repeating the fears in our mind, and really repeating the same actions and the way they work.

This is a very common phrase, is they’re playing not to lose, so they’re not playing to win. You’re playing to survive, and the ego’s job is really survival. It’s not, “Let’s be born in this world and create something really outrageous and incredible that breaks the boundaries of life. Go through fear and do something different.” No, the ego’s tendency is to, “How can I make the least amount of waves, and get fed every day and look good, and not make a fool of myself and survive the day?”

I would think our ancestors probably that’s all they thought about, was survival end of the day. They weren’t thinking of some grandiose path in life and purpose, except survival. Most of us on this planet maybe people not listening to the show, but we have been programmed to think like our ancestors, that are just surviving the day. There’s so much more to us than that. How do we change it? How do we go through and-

Dr. Rob: Right. We want to play to win, not just play to not lose, like you said. It is a subtle difference that most people miss, because they’re caught up in that game of life, and they’re always out to defend because of the fears, the underlying fears. Now, these fears are unconscious, because conditioning we know has a powerful effect on us. By the time we know that it’s running the show and we think we’re making free choices, but we’re really acting out of conditioning.

Debi: Let’s look at examining one of the fears, how it shows up. The fear of the loss of money. What you’re saying is that we have a pattern unconsciously that we’re operating under. A very simple example of that would be you have a fear of a loss of money, so you are overly focused on not losing. Your mind is putting all of its energy in not losing. Imagine if your mind is consumed with, how do I not lose? It can’t think in possibility, it can’t think of how do I win? How do I make more money? It’s more like how do I not lose money?

Most of us, that’s how we’re conditioned, is that the loss of money is really the scary thing. That’s why we get triggered when we get a bill that’s way too high than we expected, we lose a job, we try to build a business, but it’s not working. That fear is reflected out in our reality, and unconsciously what we’re doing is I think we’re just giving too much energy to it. That energy is giving us our result.

Dr. Rob: Yes, absolutely. It is a mind shift that happens. If you’re thinking, in let’s say accepting these challenges that we are born into. The first one is ignorance. In Sanskrit, it’s a VGo. Meaning there’s no knowledge, no light, no understanding. The first part of, let’s say, the first challenge we have is to gain knowledge. If it’s the fear of money, well, what is money? What is its purpose? Because if we just buy into the conditioning, again, we’re thinking that money’s out there. That wealth comes from the outside. When it’s a mindset. It’s the ability to think clearly and understand the nature of this reality that allows us to generate abundance.

Debi: When I refer to it as a bubble that we’re in, that we see our mind when we’re looking out in the world. If we’re not conscious of our divine self and we think we’re just, this ignorance of who we really are, we are going to see a delusion basically. This delusion of limitation. It’s almost like we’re caught up in it, and the more we do, we feel, “Okay, look, I tried to make more money, it didn’t work. That’s just the way it is. The economy’s bad, or no one wants this product, or I’m not good enough yet. Maybe I need more experience, or I don’t have the qualifications.” But we’re really just seeing our mind. We’re seeing the bubble. That’s where the bubble of ignorance and the ego is actually creating it versus it’s actually a real possibility out there. We have to find a way to move beyond that.

Dr. Rob: Right, and it applies to the other fears as well. The fear of loss of death– I’m sorry, the fear of loss of health is the same principle, because when you’re caught up in thinking that health comes from just exercises, just dieting or just at nutrition, you’re externalizing the, let’s say the will towards health.

Debi: Or even just surgeries and working on the physical body, removing parts and-

Dr. Rob: Right, depending on medication and surgery to keep you healthy. You’re missing the point that it’s a mind body that you’re dealing with, and that health originates from within the mind. The same with love, because if you understand that love is arising from within you not from without, then you’re misperceiving things.

Debi: I think very specifically, the fear of loss of love, very similar to fear of loss of money, is that most people are going out looking for a relationship or being in a relationship, with that playing not to lose mentality. That, “I better protect my heart because people can’t be trusted. I don’t know if I’m getting my heart broken again, and so I better play not to lose versus really open up and go forward with it.” What happens is that the fear of loss of love. There are times where maybe when we were younger, someone let us down and wasn’t there for us when we needed them, and we felt that abandonment. We all have, in some way.

We are trying to defend that still, and what happens is that we think it’s gone and we’re rationalizing that we’re beyond that, but it’s still operating. If we keep repeating and getting the same relationships, like, “Why do people keep leaving me? Why are relationships not lasting? It’s like maybe I’m doing something. Maybe I just need to change my dating profile, or move to a different city or get a makeover and all these physical things that we’re trying to change, or change our behavior in a relationship so people won’t leave.” It’s still going to play out the same way. If you’re fearing the loss of love, you will create the loss of love.

If you’re fearing the loss of money, you will create the loss of money. If you’re fearing the loss of health, you will create a loss of health. People try to do those diets, those crash diets, and they all say, “They don’t work.” Because your mind is pushing away a disease or overweightness. It’s like you’re rejecting it, and you’re giving it a lot of energy. You’re judging it. You’re judging yourself because of it. You’re judging yourself because you’re single. You’re judging yourself because you’re overweight, and you’re judging yourself because you don’t have any money. It’s like you’re creating your own trap. You’re not doing this on purpose. This is not a judgment at all. This is what happens when we get caught up in the bubble. We try to get out and we think, “If I just think positive or I do a vision board, then I’ll escape this bubble.” Rob, you’re going to tell us how we escape the bubble. Are we going to pop the bubble?

Dr. Rob: [chuckles] Well, actually again, Patanjali gives us the answer. He says, in essence, not in these words. I’m paraphrasing, but he says something like this, if you ask, “Well, who is the one that’s conditioned by these external forces?” The only one that’s conditioned is the I, that sense of ego, the ego. Now, if you ask, “What is the nature of the ego?” It’s not existent. It doesn’t exist. It’s simply like a construct that we hold in our mind, to operate in the world to survive now. There’s nothing wrong because it helps us survive, but it’s not who we really are and what we really are.

It’s like, if you think about the body has a homeostasis to it, it doesn’t have– You can’t find the homeostasis in the body, but there is a mechanism that balances the body and helps it stay at a certain temperature. Sweat when we get too hot, shiver when we get too cold, so we keep that body temperature move. Regulate all the chemicals as we feed our body and distribute everything. It has a balancing function. Think of the ego as our psychological mechanism for homeostasis.

The difference is, we don’t personalize homeostasis in the body. We don’t say, “That’s my homeostasis. My body’s sweating right now. I must be a bad person.” No, or, “I’m cold right now. I’m a bad person. I’m doing something wrong.” When psychologically, when we’re facing an adversity, the psyche, the ego has a way to bring us back into balance based on the information it learned before. What happens is that we personalize it. We say, “That’s me, that’s my resistance. That’s my pattern of not being able to have money, or not being able to have love.” We tend to look at our psychological patterns as related to some I.

Dr. Rob: Yes, so because ignorance is the root of all these fears. It is also, let’s say that knowledge, higher knowledge of the true nature of ourselves. Our consciousness is the solution, as we gain this deeper knowledge of who we are, what our mind is capable of, and how it creates this apparent universe for us. That clarifies the state of our being, that we were never really bound. We were never really subject to conditioning. The only reason we were, let’s say, caught up in that, was because we thought we were the ego.

Debi: If we’re not the ego, who are we? Back to that idea too of the ego not having a personality. It’s really a function. That what happens is that since we’re self-aware through our whole life, there’s this continuum of awareness of consciousness that when we remember things from childhood, what is that part of our mind that remembers all those things? It’s a continuum of beingness.


Debi: If we aren’t the ego, what is that, Rob?

Dr. Rob: Right, the question is not so much who are we, but what are we, in a sense. Right, because what is the nature of our experience as human beings? It is that awareness and the [unintelligible 00:24:55], which is really the highest knowledge known to humankind, it says very clearly, “You are that consciousness of the universe. You are the awareness of the universe.” Meaning you’re not your individual self as you believe yourself to be. It’s an apparent reality that arises from the creation of the universe. We are participating and experiencing this universe, as separate individuals, but the reality, the fundamental reality, is that we are the universe, we are the self, we are the consciousness of this experience.

Debi: How I do this. I don’t even know if I ever shared with you how I, because I’m a very visual person. I picture the bubble of my conscious, like my pattern. I could see the pattern, I can see it show up externally. Something that I see showing up over and over again. The first step is recognizing the pattern, how much money are you making? How much love do you have in your life? What’s your health right now? What’s that pattern? Then I want you to imagine that that pattern is like a bubble, that you’re surrounded by this bubble, but the bubble isn’t the totality of what’s possible. I imagine myself, what is outside the bubble? What is the potential that’s unlimited outside this bubble?

If we could start to think and imagine ourselves outside of the bubble, outside of this conditioned bubble, we can really start to break free of that fear . The only reason we are in fear, is because we’re in that bubble, that the ego’s bubble that it created that I got to survive. Imagine how it would feel if you got the success or the love or the health that you wanted? First of all, what would that feel like? How would you feel if you knew it was inevitable?

If you didn’t have fear of, “Maybe it might not happen for me.” How do we move our mind from identifying with this ego and this ignorance of we think we’re limited, to this idea that you can have it all, like the great teachers teach all the time, is that anything’s possible. How do we do that? What’s a great step for you? That’s how I do it. I see myself outside the bubble, and start imagining something outside the bubble and I don’t believe the bubble.

Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s remembering to, or reminding yourself of what the nature of this experience is. Perceptually, when you wake up in the morning, your senses tell you, “You’re separate than the world you’re seeing, the objects of the world out there. If you’re observing an object, that means there’s a subject, meaning there’s someone observing you.” You think, “Well, that must be that ego I.” But it’s not really the ego I, it’s a higher witness within us that is the creator of the universe.

That witness is a higher self, the true self, or what some Eastern philosophies call higher consciousness, the cosmic consciousness. That consciousness within you is allowing you then, to observe the world and the universe, but it’s also the creator of that universe.

Debi: When you step outside and identify with that powerful part of yourself, and reading higher knowledge. We have a great course, The Power of the Keto, talking about the public I Keto that talks about the higher knowledge. When you see yourself outside of it, the key is that you don’t feel afraid anymore. You start acting like what would happen if you weren’t afraid of losing money? What would you do? What would what would you do different? Try something new this week that you feel, “I could take a chance on something.” That if I didn’t have the fear of losing money, what would I do? What bold move can I do?

If I didn’t fear losing love or someone abandoning me, or someone hurting me, what would I do? How would I be with people? Would I be clear with them and tell them how I really feel and be open and know who I am and not worry, “I hope they like me, and I better not say that. That will push them away.” Being fully in your power, and how would it feel that everything you put in your mouth is health and vitality and nourishing to you? Because I tell you, the other two fears are probably what creates the health problem. Is the fear of money and the fear of love, creates a lot of people imbalance in eating and not working out, or overworking out or over starving themselves and putting themselves in a dangerous physical condition. They all play together, and it all comes down to that one thing. We believe we’re the I, we believe that we’re limited and we forget who we really are.

A great show today. I know it’s a lot. It’s heavy. Again, I will ask you to think about, what is the pattern in your life? What’s the bubble you’re living in? What would it be like if you were outside of the bubble? What do you want that’s outside of this bubble? What do you really want? What would you do differently if you knew it was inevitable that you get everything you want? Play that I get everything I want the game, because that’s the truth. You get everything you want, and actually when you get what you want outside of the fears, it’s fully satisfying. If you get what you want inside fear, like I met someone from their fear of love, you’re going to be clinging to them, you’re going to be worried if they’re going to leave, you’re going to be stressed all the time. If you get money, you’re going to worry about losing it all. If there’s more coming in, you’re still trapped. The key to really free your mind is to free yourself from these fears as well.

Dr. Rob: Absolutely. Yes, we started off talking about this downward cycle. Keep in mind that the upward cycle begins with higher knowledge, meaning you start to understand your mind and working with your mind.

The [unintelligible 00:31:28] says that there are many paths, but they all lead to that higher self, the true– they all lead to that same conclusion that we are not our ego, that we are his higher self. It’s important to choose a path and stick to it, and we invite you to do some of our work if you’re interested, if this makes sense to you. We have courses, we have a coach training.

Debi: Yes, young and life coach training. I also want to mention too that you’ve heard a lot of this probably before that anything is possible. What most people don’t– they leave out the idea that you have to drop the ego to actually really create. A lot of people are trying to use spiritual laws, the law of attraction, law of polarities and all these things. They’re still operating an ego that if you’re an ego, those fears are still at play. Again, I’m going to use visualization in the law of attraction to attract this ideal partner. If I’m an ego, it’s going to be a hot mess because you’re going to be stressed out all the time if they’re going to call you are not.

Tthe same thing with money or you’re going out and you’re going to use the law of attraction and visualize myself on a yacht and the bit of big mansion. You’ve seen all those videos people do. If you’re coming, they don’t teach you how to get outside of the ego. They teach you basically the good news, but they don’t teach you how to really do it.

Dr. Rob: How to polish up the ego.

Debi: How to make it all shiny. I call it the South help makeover, just a superficial makeover. You’re really still not free until you escape from those fears. It’s normal. It’s not something happened to you in the past that created these fears. We’ve all been conditioned this way, and we all have the power to choose and create something else. Hope you enjoyed today, and don’t forget to subscribe to us on our podcast, on iTunes, on Google play, on Spotify, check out our YouTube channel.

Dr. Rob: Come to see us at our live events.

Debi: Yes, we’re having a two right now, live events for the public. One is in January in LA called Alchemy, and we’re also doing a version in Prague in May next year. We hope to see you there. If you are interested, go to our website, Debi and Dr. Rob, go to events and apply today. It’s by application only to get a ticket to these very exclusive high-end events that are going to transform your mind and free you to create what you want.

Dr. Rob: Awesome.

Debi: Have a great day, everyone. Enjoy the holidays and we’ll see you next time on the Debi and Dr. Rob Show.

Dr. Rob: Much love.

[00:34:19] [END OF AUDIO]


Unleashing the Warrior Feminine Archetype

The women’s empowerment movement has encouraged many females to step forward and become leaders in the world. The way she can really make a lasting difference is to make the change in her own mind first rather than fighting the world. If you are hiding out, afraid to make waves, this is the episode you have been waiting for to get out and make a difference.

In this episode, Debi describes:

  • the Four Feminine Archetypes based on Jungian Psychology and how they influence a woman’s life.
  • how to cultivate the strength and courage to go for your dreams using the power of the Warrior Archetype
  • the key to making social change
  • how angry protester is not as effective as someone who is inspiring others
  • how to integrate the Warrior archetype for women that isn’t based on old masculine models

Interviewer: Welcome back to the Debi and Dr. Rob Show.

Debi: Hello.

Interviewer: Today I’m interviewing Debi because we usually don’t get to talk about what we’ve been working on individually. I know you’ve been working on publishing in Inc. magazine. Congratulations on that. As well as empowering women and developing programs to empower women.

One of the most interesting things that has come out of your work is this idea of the feminine archetypes and how to use them in empowering women. I thought I’d ask you a couple of questions on that.

Debi: Okay, sounds good.

Interviewer: First of all, what are the four feminine archetypes?

Debi: The four feminine archetypes– I’ve done a lot of research with Jung’s who are working some of the other psychologists that have studied under Jung, the women that have worked with Jung, and out of all the reading I’ve done, the four that I think are the most important and primary are the warrior, the lover, the mother, and the priestess.

The warrior represents our willingness to make social change. The lover is our sense of pleasures, including relationships and food and enjoying life and experiencing the sensuality of life. The mother is the nurturing and creative aspect in ourselves to create life and also to nurture it and cultivate it. Then the high priestess is really our spiritual nature, our divine nature, our devotional nature.

I think if you look at women, and the four, is makes the self, which is the wholeness. That’s why I picked four, and I think those four, whatever you experience in life as a woman, whatever challenges you have, you can go to these four and you’ll find the answers.

Interviewer: It covers a lot of ground. Now, for those not familiar with Jung’s work, what is an archetype?

Debi: I think of an archetype, and he describes it, I’m not paraphrasing him, but I see it as a universal template. We have in our life, our conscious life our personal experience, and we have personal patterns and conditioning that we’ve gotten over our lifetime how to react, how to behave, what makes up our personality based on our personal experience. Jung believed that there’s a deeper level to our unconscious beside just our personal unconscious, our personal experiences, interactions with the knocks in and pulls of life that there’s actually a deeper nature to us which is the collective unconscious.

The collective unconscious is organized in archetypes. There’s archetypes for everything, and it’s basically the matrix of what creates reality. Like we talk about the mother archetype, everything has a mother. Even a plant has a mother, there’s a mother plant. It’s an idea that you can’t really see directly, but you see the pattern everywhere and you see the symbols everywhere and you’re like, “Oh yes.”

If you think about movies, just watching a movie, all the characters in the movies, if you look at a bunch of movies, I love movies, so I see them all the time. You see that there’s always the villain, there’s the warrior in the movie, the mother character, and the movie itself has an archetypal pattern to it as well. Even the trajectory of the movie has a pattern into it. We live in this patterns, and it’s just really how we create our life.

Interviewer: Just for the sake of brevity and time wise-

Debi: I can’t go on forever?


Interviewer: Let’s talk one of these. My favorite is the warrior, the most intriguing one, anyway.

Debi: Yes, the warrior to me in this time is most important because a lot of women are stepping into their power. More and more women are starting their own businesses. It’s actually the fastest growing segment in entrepreneurship are women. More women are actually graduating college than men now. Women are not just staying home and having babies anymore, they’re actually feeling that they have a purpose and a mission in life and a career. There’s also they have to interact with this world which is very driven by men and masculine ideas. I see the warrior as not as a fighting the world, but as almost like breaking through the barriers and the conflicts within themselves that are stopping them from expressing who they are.

It’s not about going out and slaying the dragon. It’s going in and saying, “Why do I have this dragon in the first place? It’s not real, okay, let me move on.” It’s more of an internal wrestling with ourselves, an internal battle. Then when that internal battle is not realized internally, it shows up externally. It’s about moving people inside.

I think that women, if they’re not conscious of this warrior archetype, what will happen is that they’ll tend to pull back, they’ll tend to not take a lot of action in their life. They’ll be very risk averse. They’ll avoid conflict. They’ll not want to make waves. If they’re in a marriage and they have kids and these expectations of them of playing a role and they want to do something else, there’ll be a conflict within them and they tend to want to just stay in their comfort zone. The warrior is about a woman’s ability to break free off their comfort zone.

Of course… men have this too, but for a woman, it’s just a different process.

Interviewer: All right. Let’s say this archetype remains unconscious in the woman, what happens to her?

Debi: She becomes very angry, which she might never be conscious of it, and that anger gets projected out there. She sees a lot of frustration. Then when she does, it shall maybe fly off the handle, or she’ll get very depressed because it’s the energy that she’s been sitting on and she’s not using. We all have a natural process Jung has said that we’re all drawn to individuation, we’re all drawn to move outside of that comfort zone. If we don’t, we start to feel either really depressed or pissed off at the world and we’re staying, “These people are stopping me from doing what I want to do. It will feel as though the problem is external.

Embracing the warrior archetype is having this idea that you’re the battles within, and how do I get the strength, the courage and cultivating that risk in life to be willing to make mistakes, be willing to fall on your face and look like a fool for what you love. That idea that something you’re willing to die for and to make a change in your life until you see people that are really making social change have embodied that warrior archetype, unless they’re very angry.

You’ll see a difference with a protestor who’s really angry and upset and feeling frustrated, or someone who’s very inspirational and is lifting the world up. The warrior is someone who’s saying, “Let’s all get together. Let’s all make the world a better place.” Not just blaming and shaming the world for not following what they want or a social position that they want. It’s really an empowering way to approach it.

Another thing that’s really important is that a lot of people face the warrior and they try to integrate it in a masculine way. They’re like, “Well, if I just take more action. I’m a warrior, I’m going to go out.” This is very common in, I don’t want to name names, but a very popular self-help guru who makes people walk on water– I mean walk on coal. Yes, they don’t do that. Walk on fire. The walk at the fat coal walk.

I’ve seen people– I have friends that do this. Let’s punch holes in blocks and all these stuff. It’s not really about that. They just like this masculine idea of what it means to be a warrior.

Interviewer: Kind of like externalize-

Debi: Very externalize and very aggressive. For the warrior in herself, she has to come to terms with the– I don’t want to say the demons within herself, but the things about herself that she’s been hiding and pushing back and being okay with who she is. Being okay with her past, being okay with her mistakes, and fully loving herself, and that what’s going to help her integrate the warrior. Then have an image in her mind, an idea in her mind that she can hold in visualization to connect with that idea, and to aspire to become and make that her new persona versus the little old me who can’t make it in a world, little Mary who can’t make it. You’re going to be this powerful being that has this energy that people are drawn to, that people are going, I want to listen to what this woman has to say.

Interviewer: It reminds me about Joan of Arc or something like that.

Debi: Yes. I think a lot of women are afraid because of this tale, is that she got burned at the stake, is that they’re afraid that if I step out, if I speak up, if I go out of my comfort zone, my family is going to abandon me, my husband’s going to leave or my relationship is going to break up, or I’m not going to be able to go back to the corporate world, the money is not going to be there, and so we tend to want to shrink back and hold back. The warrior really gives us the courage and has us identify with a higher aspect of ourselves that’s not personal that gives us that courage.

Interviewer: You mentioned integration. I know integration in Jung in terms is making the unconscious conscious, and really making it part of the worldview that you inhabit. How does one or a woman go about integrating this warrior archetype?

Debi: I think that what happens with the warrior is that she is alive, and she is powerful, and she is in you already. She doesn’t need to be created in a sense. She’s there. You’re just not conscious of her, and you tend to push her– keep her unconscious. Your ego is trying to, “Let’s not let that cat out of the bag. Let’s keep her unconscious.” What we’re doing is we’re accepting that we’re not our ego, that there’s something powerful. It’s just like the whole saying is that we’re not human beings having a spiritual experience. We’re spiritual beings having a human experience. It’s sort of like that idea is that the archetype when we become aware of her, and we start identifying with her versus our little self that’s been through that little trials and light that think small, it helps us bring that part of us to life. It’s almost like welcoming our divinity and our power back, and it never went away. It’s just that we’re not using it. It’s about that. There’s a lot of precise ways. In 15 minutes, I don’t think we can go through the whole process, but through visualization, working with visualizations, she’ll show up in your dreams. You’ll have a dream of, maybe you’re fighting a battle and it’s a sign that the warrior is trying to activate herself. She’s saying, “Come on, I’m here, use me.” Then also through working with your emotions, like what is stopping you from– what’s the fear of allowing her to be expressive, you embodying the warrior.

Interviewer: Fascinating stuff. I can’t wait to hear about the other three archetypes.

Debi: I know. It’s going to be really interesting. There’s so much to teach on that. Actually, we are going to have an event where we’re going to go through all the four archetypes. It’s called alchemy. It’s coming in January in Hermosa Beach, California, right outside LA. If you’re interested in joining us and going deeper with the four archetypes in person, and really letting her shine in your life and becoming a vision for other women to be empowered by you, definitely check it out.

Interviewer: Well, thanks for that great conversation, and we hope to see you next time when we’ll talk about another one of the feminine archetypes. Thanks for tuning in. We’ll see you next time.

Debi: Take care.

[VIDEO PODCAST] Seeking and Finding Your Spiritual Path

Do you have a strong spiritual path or do you approach spirituality with a “buffet style” — take a lot of different classes and pick which ones that feel good for you?

In this episode:

  • Debi and Rob share their personal journey to find their own spiritual path
  • Know why we seek a spiritual path and the difference between seeking and finding
  • Understand the two basic philosophies – materialism (duality) or one consciousness (non-dual)
  • We talk about Carl Jung and how he influenced much of the “new age” movement
  • Learn how important it is to have a strong philosophy in order to create your life.


If you are a woman with a mission and want to explore spiritual psychology and grow yourself based on Jungian path of individuation, check out our Women’s Leadership Program called, EVOLVE. Applications are now being accepted for 2019 at http://creativewomenleaders.com 

Subscribe to our podcast on iTunes and leave us an honest review!


Debi: Hi, this is the Debi and Dr. Rob’s Show. We have a great topic today. Hi, Rob.

Dr. Rob: Good to be here, what is the topic for today?

Debi: It’s seeking and finding your spiritual path. So how do we do that? We get questions like that all the time from our listeners. They say, “How do I find my spiritual path? How do I know I’m on the right path?”. There’s so much out there and so we’re going to talk about that. What do you think?

Dr. Rob: Well, how did you start when you were starting out?

Debi: When I was little. [laughs] Well, I was raised Roman Catholic, so my spiritual path that was my family origin was go to church, pray a lot, and if God blesses you and feels it’s right, you’ll get the things you pray for. It was all about being a good girl. Don’t make any mistakes, don’t be bad. Ask for forgiveness, be a good Christian and good things will happen to you.

Which was great until I was in my twenties and I was so terrified of not making Mass that I would do anything just to make sure I was there. I thought if I missed one week of church that God would punish me and I’d be single forever. What I discovered, too, was that it wasn’t giving me the answers that I needed to apply in my personal life. I had a really bad relationship and the sister of the guy I was dating actually gave me a book called, You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay.

It was a self-help book, I’d never read self-help before and the first thing she said was that “Your thoughts create your life.” I said, “My thoughts create my life? I thought God was in charge.” It really changed the power from feeling this powerless person to praying and hoping that I’ll be blessed to actually, I can have a say. I can ask for what I want. My thoughts are actually creating more of my problems than me just being a bad Christian or a bad person or making sin.

It really fit for me really well and that started my path of trying to read a ton of self-help books. They didn’t have the internet back then so let’s go to the bookstore and try to figure out why my life wasn’t working. I really do believe that if I had met someone at got married at 23, I don’t think I would have been on the spiritual path that I am. I actually think it’s a gift when we have these questions in life or things aren’t working out because it drives us to seek. How about you?

Dr. Rob: Well, I guess I came across a lot of the same New Age ideas that you did, maybe a little bit differently. There is a connection because Carl Jung, let’s say my mentor in psychology, is considered the grandfather or the father of the New Age. A lot of the books that you read like Louise Hay was probably influenced directly or indirectly by Carl Jung. One of the first books that I came across that really inspired me was The Portable Jung which is really Carl Jung’s work edited by Joseph Campbell, the mythologist.

The other one was The Bhagavad Gita which was teachings of Krishna. Those two books really formed the foundation of the rest of my life. One was my academic training in psychology, the other one was my spiritual path along an eastern philosophy path.

Debi: I kind of did some eastern philosophy. I was more in the New Age. I lived in Colorado so there’s a lot of New Age people and crystals and healing and energy healing. We did a lot of that stuff trying to take negative energy out and clear myself so I could find love. I remember I would read tons of books. Any new author comes out, Marianne Williamson or Wayne Dyer, I would always get the book. I had tons of books and when I met you, you said I said, “Oh, have you read Wayne Dyer or have you read this book?” and you said to me, “Oh, I don’t read any of those kinds of books.” You said, “I go right to the source.”

That was the first time I ever heard that. I thought that this was how everyone does spiritual work. You either read the Bible or stay with your religion or you do the self-help version. You gave me the book The Way of the Bodhisattva, and I read it and I was completely confused but I knew there was something there. There was something that was different about it and the more I studied eastern philosophy, it really started to gel. What it did was, it gave me a foundation so then I could see all this surface stuff that was on top and say, “Oh, that doesn’t fit anymore and that doesn’t fit anymore.” It’s almost like the pruning that happens when we’re kids. Our brain has all these ideas and then it kind of prunes away and takes away all the things that don’t fit in anymore or aren’t useful.

I felt like I had so many different philosophies and teachers that I followed and then it started pruning and pruning and pruning until I started really focusing on Vedanta. When I did that, I feel like everything changed in a rapid way. I feel like things started happening. Like I was able to create my life in a better way. What we talk about with a spiritual path is the seeking is a very important part of it. You’re going to talk about why we seek and the difference between seeking and finding. When you’re in your seeking mode, you’re not going to get much trajectory in your life. You’re going to be seeking and it’s going to feel a little confusing for a while.

That’s when that foundation comes in. The tracks are set for you and you start to move forward in your life.

Dr. Rob: Let’s say from the spiritual psychology perspective, the seeking is an essential part. It’s okay when you’re in that seeking mode to take your time with it and to really allow yourself to be a little skeptical, a little confused. That’s what seeking is, it’s essentially saying, “I don’t really know what I believe. I don’t claim any particular path, any particular religion right now because I am in that questioning mode.” It’s right to just take your time with it and seek and ask the right questions.

A lot of people give up though because the answers don’t come easily or don’t come in a prepackaged–

Debi: Santa didn’t bring their gift.

Dr. Rob: Right. It’s painful in a way to be in that mode of questioning.

Debi: Constantly and not getting the answer?

Dr. Rob: Right.

Debi: I know you had said that it’s sort of like you’re digging holes. If you keep changing your paths, it’s okay for a little bit but if you keep staying there you’re going to dig a shallow hole. Your ego’s actually designed to keep you from the truth.

Dr. Rob: Right, it’s a metaphor that says that the seeker who keeps changing path is like a person trying to dig a well to find water but they stop at about three feet and then start another hole. By the end of the year, they’ve dug four or five holes but haven’t hit the water because they keep changing it up to the next one.

Debi: It’s almost like when they just get close to something really good, they see a shiny object. It’s the ego going, “Oh, look over there. Look at this new video that’s out by this new teacher. They have this new best-selling book. Now I’ll follow that person and I just remember-” You can see this happening online, you see people– It’s like a flood, momentum toward a teacher has a great book out.

I remember Eat, Pray, Love. Everyone was in the Eat, Pray, Love mood for a while. Then there was another book and everyone’s into that and then this author has a book and everyone’s doing Eckhart Tolle. Then the masses gel to the next big thing but then what happens is we don’t go deep enough. Since we’re not deep enough, the roots of that understanding don’t keep us there and we really need to go a little deeper.

I always say that when you’re finding that path, it’s the path that you don’t leave even when things get tough. Then you know you’ve found your right path. You love the path, you understand it, you believe in it. Let’s talk about, how do you know if it matches your belief? How do you know what we believe? Let’s go deeper. Let’s go to the water.

Dr. Rob: One way to think about it is, what is your worldview? Is your worldview consistent? We run into people a time that are presenting a certain idea but if you start to examine their ideas they appear to be contradicting themselves. They might say well, I believe in oneness or in spiritual power but there is negative things out there are trying to hurt me.

Debi: Yes.

Dr. Rob: There’s spirits or negative energy. That doesn’t make sense because they’re contradicting themselves in buying into this worldview that both is one and at the same time dualistic.

Debi: Well, a good example of that is if you’re, “I’m a spiritual being but there is things I need to be afraid of. There is things externally from me that are a threat to me.” That if we understand what the true spiritual being is oneness then you’re not seeing that separation. You’re not feeling that there is something else coming in, you are everything. It’s just a really different way to do it. The same thing with psychology, self-help has been hijacked by psychology.

Religion some way creeps its way into spiritual work and then people make it religious or the religion in itself starts to distort our ideas even new consciousness ideas. The ideas of the Law of Attraction and how to create your life. It actually gets a little religious versus philosophical.

Dr. Rob: Right. One of the most common let’s say worldviews out there is the materialistic worldview. Often it’s a dualistic because they say, “Well, there is a material world but then there is a spiritual world as well.”

Debi: Yes.

Dr. Rob: Those two things are dual. They’re saying there is two elements here. A material world and a spiritual world. How those interact then becomes the question and often they don’t have a really good understanding or philosophy as to how that interaction happens. It’s an incomplete worldview to say the least.

Debi: Is it this idea that in science there is a matter and then there is consciousness and that arises out of matter. Is that what you’re talking about materialistic?

Dr. Rob: Yes. In the West for a long time this idea that our brain is so complex. We have a hundred billion neurons firing it at once or in different sequences and out of that complicated interaction of these neurons we get what is called consciousness. Meaning awareness. Just we are aware of ourselves of the world of the universe. Now, that for most people it makes an intuitive sense that, “Yes, of course, when I wake up in the morning I was asleep and then when I woke up I see the world as it appears to me. Now, I’m conscious, I’m aware.”

Even in science now with a new physics coming in, quantum physics especially, and even in the way we perceive the perceptual science that’s not really what happens in consciousness or the way we experience the world. The way it really happens is that our brain actually makes up a 3D model in our head about the world and how it works and everything, and then that’s what we are experiencing. We do not have direct access to the physical world out there. It is essentially a mental experience that we’re creating.

Debi: It’s so mind-blowing. Quantum physics talks about that. We didn’t know that maybe 100 years ago. The ancients knew it. That’s where we’re seeing that science moving back into the spiritual realm.

Dr. Rob: Yes. If we look at the East they’ve always presented– there are different philosophies but in general, this idea that everything is consciousness. Meaning that they understood this principle that we are dealing with essentially within a mental experience of the world. A world that’s created in consciousness and they’ve gone with that for, especially Vedanta, for many years and centuries and thousands of years now that it is a conscious universe that we’re dealing with.

These two worldviews are really what’s shaping the way science and religion or faith has been playing out especially in recent years.

Debi: Dual or non-dual. Those two realities. That’s really a good basis for what is your path. Do you believe in a dual reality where you’re the separate being, separate from God, separate from the external world the Law of Attraction? Kind of, “I’m going to hold of vision and my vibration is going to go out and pull someone or something in,” or do you believe in the non-dual which is that you are consciousness. That what you’re experiencing is your own mind.

This is what Eastern philosophy has discovered and science has discovered so it almost makes sense to start thinking about would that be a better experience for me and more empowering for me? What we know is, and where I got lost for a long time, and I still sometimes forget that I’m one with everything, that the world it does feel separate. We have to keep reminding ourselves that it’s not. There is a lot of books, and psychologies, and new age stuff, and scientific ideas that are in contrast to that and they see everything dual- in dualistic terms.

You have to ask yourself which side am I on? Am I on the dual side or the non-dual side? Then you could start looking at paths that match that. What you’ll notice is once you pick a path and this is something that I’ve noticed for myself is that when I picked- when I started being really clear on what I believed that I believed in oneness I believe that consciousness arises from me, that there isn’t a separate independent reality that is influencing me that I maybe I’m not conscious of it but I still have access to it. That is empowering to me.

When I read other books or I see other philosophies I can again prune away and say nope this I don’t have to get distracted with this. This book looks distracting to me away from my core view. That’s what’s missing in a lot of– I don’t think people talk about this and that’s why people are so confused. I talk to people all the time and they’re like, “I’ve done know 20 courses and I’m still confused and I don’t know what to believe.”

We ask them well, “What do you believe?” and they don’t know. That is the most important question you can ask yourself on your spiritual path is, “What is it that I believe about reality and what makes up my reality and where is my power in creating it?”

Dr. Rob: Yes. When we say believe it’s not in the traditional sense because there is an interview on YouTube now, one of the last interviews Carl Jung gave where they ask him, “You’ve been studying spirituality for all these years. Do you believe in God?” They asked him directly and he says, “No, I don’t believe, I know.” We’re talking about a direct experience of these spiritual matters. Not a belief in the traditional sense that the church or synagogue or the temple gave you a set of beliefs and that’s what you were going to go by but more of a way of seeking and finding your own spiritual path, and having a direct experience of that reality.

Debi: The best way to do that is to keep asking questions, to have a mentor or a guide that’s going to help you. Ask those tough questions that has the same philosophy as you and look out for people that are just fancy objects. They have fancy names, maybe fancy videos, fancy marketing but they’re really contradicting themselves on their views. If they’re confused about what their worldview they’re not going to be able to how you decide.

Be really clear and that’s what’s going to really make big changes in your life. You’ll go from that seeking which is really important. In The Life of Pi, he was seeking, he was in India and he was trying all these different religions but he had an experience out on the water of what life was about and that’s part of the process. If you’re seeking you’re on the right path as long as you’re asking those questions.

When you find and you make a decision that this is what I want. I’m a dualistic philosophy or I’m a oneness philosophy, non-dual, then you’re going to see huge changes and it’s going to basically clear the clutter in your mind of, “Does this work for me? Should I try this technique? Should I follow this teacher? Should I buy this book?” It’s all going to make a lot more sense to you. That’s why we wanted to have this class because it really is so important if it all starts here with your worldview and your spiritual philosophy.

Dr. Rob: Absolutely.

Debi: What a great show. If you have any questions about this, any contradictions to what you’ve learned and want to test it out visit us on our Facebook group. It’s Debi and Dr. Rob show. Just search for us in Facebook and you’ll see us, you’ll join our group. Feel free to ask us questions, tell us what other topics you’d like us to speak about and find out more about us at www.debianddrrob.com. We have events coming up 2019. We also have some really great programs that you might be interested in as well. If you’re ready to do join the oneness bandwagon.

Dr. Rob: [laughs] The non-dualistic–

Debi: The non-dualistic bandwagon.

Dr. Rob: Thanks for tuning in and we hope to see on Facebook.

Debi: Take care, everyone. Thanks for coming.


[VIDEO] Lucid Dreaming and Spiritual Development

Have you ever awoken during sleep and realized that you were still dreaming? This is what is called Lucid Dreaming and almost everyone has at least one experience of this level of dreaming during their lifetime. Some people lucid dream frequently and others randomly throughout their life. In this episode, we explore the power of lucid dreaming and what it means to change your life.

This episode was filmed on video, if you want to see the video version you can click here and see us in action. We discuss:

  • What is lucid dreaming?
  • How can you create lucidity in a dream?
  • Techniques to prepare your mind to have a lucid dream
  • How lucid dreaming can show you how the mind works and reach higher levels of consciousness


Debi: Welcome to the Debi & Dr. Rob Show. This is Debi and I’m with Dr. Rob.

Rob: Nice to be here.

Debi: We are actually on video. It’s our first edition of our podcast on video, so if you are listening to this podcast on the audio version, we’d love for you to come visit us on YouTube and you can see this episode and more to come on video as well. Let’s talk about today’s topic which is, I know, one of your favorite topics.

Rob: One of my favorite all time topics is lucid dreaming.

Debi: Why do you love lucid dreaming?

Rob: Well, I love dreaming in general. I love talking about dreams but lucid dreaming is a special case of dreams. It’s a special category of dream-work. Now, the basic definition and most of you have probably have had a lucid dream in your life. You might not remember it, or you might have though it was something else, like an out of body experience or something, but it’s essentially when you wake up in the dream, meaning you have this awareness, this consciousness, but you’re still caught up in the dream. You’re still in the dreamscape in a sense.

Debi: A lot of people might have that just when they wake up. Sometimes they’ll have that experience and, of course, everyone knows that movie Inception with Leonardo DiCaprio where he says, “I’m having a dream within a dream,” and basically they were using lucid dreaming. Of course it’s not scientific, the dream, it’s a ciphered movie but it gives you this idea that your body is asleep but you are awake inside a dreamscape and you are conscious. Which is a really fascinating concept for [crosstalk].

Rob: Just to be clear, it’s not cipher anymore. Back in the ’70s or ’80s, in the ’80s, people started studying it seriously and they found out this is an actual phenomenon. Everyone has the capacity, the capability to do lucid dreaming if they just learn a few simple techniques.

Debi: We are going to talk about that on the show too. Why would we use them? What’s the benefit of lucid dreaming?

Rob: That’s a good question. In general, if you think about why do we need dreams to begin with, why would nature force us to fall asleep and then have this 3D hallucination that takes us to other places and other situations and essentially nobody knows. There are some good theories. It does appear to have to do with good memory function, good logic, good reasoning, basically the brain needs it to survive, and to thrive and to be able to function properly, just general dreams. Why would lucid dreaming be part of dreams? It seems to be more on the spiritual mystical side.

Debi: I remember I’ve had a few lucid dreams, and I remember the next day feeling euphoric when I have them. It’s like this lightness, this joy as is if I just went too strong and cleansed my mind. I don’t know what it was. I wonder is it just because you are so aware? What’s that euphoric feeling?

Rob: I think it’s just a breakthrough in our consciousness that we realize well, there is this whole other level of reality in our mind, or our mind has all this power and this capability to really explore the world of consciousness, of dreams, in a different way. That realization just fills us with happiness and joy because it is such an incredible thing. Think about it, imagine having this wakeful consciousness but then stepping outside the door and flying up [crosstalk], and it feels like you are awake and you are flying or you’re doing all these incredible things but your body is fast asleep in your bed.

Debi: Sometimes when you were kids, a lot of children talk about dreams of flying or dreams of remembering that they could fly in their dreams, so we had a lot more experiences when we were younger but I remember, just so people can know what is a lucid dream, what does it feel like, I think it was when we first met, you weren’t there, and I woke up and I got out of bed and I walked down the stairs, and I saw my roommate, she was sleeping on the couch for some reason. It was like a balcony you can overlook, and I went to put my hand on the rail, my hand went right through the rail and I realized I was dreaming and I just was walking around and then I went back to sleep.

The next day she had woken up, she didn’t normally sleep there, so I’m like, “Okay, I knew I must have done something and maybe that was more out of body experience, but I felt like I was awake and I was just walking around in the house and I it was just this kind of sensation of, “That’s interesting. I must be dreaming because my hand was going through the rail.”

I was floating and I just remember the next day thinking, “Oh my God, I just feel so happy today and so alive.” It was just this amazing experience and I think it’s what you said, maybe it’s because you have experienced another realm of your own consciousness that you haven’t experienced before.

Rob: People who have not experienced a lucid dream, I know what you’re thinking, you’re probably saying, “Well, it’s just your imagination,” or “just a very intense dream,” but it’s not that. Like I said, this is well documented and it’s a psychological phenomenon that anyone can access. Now, having said that, there is a caveat, we do not want to use lucid dreams just for fun games.

Debi: Which a lot of those retreats where people go and do lucid dreams and it’s more just to leave your body and play around.

Rob: It’s to say, “Look at me I’m so wonderful, I can do this lucid dreaming thing.” In reality, it is a gift that’s given to us, human beings, this incredible– I think it’s more like a spiritual imagination that is given to us in order for us to cultivate our spiritual life in a very direct way and so always consider, “How can I use it to become a better person instead, to increase my awareness, my capacity for compassion, for love, for connectedness?”

Debi: Well, I think one of the things that lucid dreaming the benefits could be is that when you wake up in a dream and then you can direct that dream, you are actually building a muscle of your consciousness to be able in your waking life to say, let me bend this reality as well and so we start to see, for me it’s like the dream world and the waking world become the same material and so you’re not thinking, “Oh, that’s the magical part and there’s no rules there but here there are rules and everything solid.”

I think it just comes from a place of, if you come from the ego and you’re attached to the magic, you’re not going to really get the benefit from it but if you come from a place of individuation where you’re seeing these dreams or these experiences as a way to show how your mind works and how consciousness works, I think this is a great, great tool. The people are listening going, “How can I have a lucid dream? How can I do this? How can I learn how to do this?” What would you say?

Rob: There are techniques, we can talk about one in specific that we think is very safe, very natural.

Debi: No electrodes and lights going on your eyes, a lot of people use electronics or drugs to [crosstalk].

Rob: Nothing like that. There is a precedence for this in a whole discipline in Tibet Buddhism it’s called dream yoga. Dream yoga is using lucid dreams for spiritual development in essence. It doesn’t mean that you’re doing asanas in your dream although you could, I guess.

Debi: The downward dog [laughs].

Rob: Yoga is used more as a discipline of the mind. How can we discipline the mind through lucid dreaming? That’s the way we want to approach lucid dreaming, as a disciplining of the mind to cultivate it’s consciousness, it’s levels of awareness. One of the basic techniques is that while you’re awake, in this ordinary waking world, look at you hands and ask yourself, “Am I dreaming?”

Debi: “Am I dreaming? Am I dreaming? Am I dreaming?” You could do this right now at home.

Rob: Yes.

Debi: “Am I dreaming?”

Rob: Don’t do it at work because you might get fired or something.

Debi: You can think it.

Rob: [laughs] Some people also, when they look at their watch, they make it a practice to ask, “Am I dreaming?” What they do is, they look at the watch, they look away and then look back at it. If it’s still the same, you know you’re in this waking state. If it has changed, then you might suspect you’re dreaming.

Debi: I know, because when you’re dreaming, you don’t know you’re dreaming. The reason why we have these techniques is that we start to wake up from them. I remember, before you told me about this technique, I remember having a lucid dream where I was flying through space, very crescent dream. I think you were on your way to around this planet, and I was looking at my hands going up and I’m like, “Oh.” I noticed the little freckles on my fingers and I was like, “Okay, I’m dreaming.” Because I could see my hands. When you told me that this technique I said, “That’s why I did that in that dream, I could see my hands,” so a part of me must have known about that.

I really like that one. One thing that I discovered myself is when I do visualizations, one thing I’ve realized is that, in visualizations, I’m always seeing throughout my own eyes and I’m seeing forward. I’m never looking behind me, so I’m seeing in that one direction. That’s basically how we are like, we don’t turn around all the time. We’re focused maybe on this very limited scope. What I started to do in my visualization is I would be in this place, and then I would be like, “What’s behind me?” and I would turn around and see the 360. I would just practice seeing the whole gamut of the experience.

I remember, when I started to do that every day, I think the seventh day, I woke up in a dream and I spun myself around in the dream and I said, “Oh my god I’m awake.” I was so excited and I was trying to make this tree grow and created a house and I was in this very grey, there was nothing there. It was like a virtual reality almost. It was very bizarre, but I remember thinking, “It was me practicing that.” When I was in the dream, I started turning around and then I realized I was awake. That’s another– my suggestion that I’ve discovered that really helps.

Again, we’re not getting attached to, “I have to have a lucid dream and it’s so great.” When we do, we start to see how powerful our mind is. Then if you can direct your dream, imagine what you can do in a waking world. Imagine waking up in life because most of our lives, we’re sleep-walking basically where our unconscious is doing all, we’re going through the motions with getting ready in the morning and eating, and we just go through our day at work and driving. We’re really in this fog of a dreamlike state and very, very infrequently are we wide awake. Do you think mindfulness would also be–?

Rob: Yes, definitely. Mindfulness is being aware in the immediate moment and focusing on what you’re doing in the moment and in real time. Meditation, we know helps. Visualization helps. Good sleep hygiene, which means you don’t–

Debi: Take a shower before you go to bed.

Rob: Don’t drink a lot of stimulants, coffee or sodas, a lot of sugar before you go to sleep. Certain rituals like taking a shower or meditating, relaxing before you go to sleep, all those things, we know increase the likelihood of having a lucid dream.

Debi: We could also mention to our clients is to set the intention that you’re going to have a lucid dream. Before you go to bed, you could do this with dreaming in general. Just say, “I’m going to remember my dreams.” And you’re setting that intention as you drift off. You can also set the intention, “I’m going to have a lucid dream.” The mind is so powerful, you could even say, “I’m going to wake up at seven o’clock,” and you will wake up at 7:00 AM that morning. Your mind will take orders from you.

Rob: The basic theory is this, like you said, when we are in a dream, we don’t know we’re dreaming most of the time. When strange things happen, we want to get into the habit of questioning that, “Am I dreaming?” You’re walking down main street in your town and all of a sudden you see a giraffe walking by, you can ask yourself-

Debi: Am I dreaming?

Rob: “Is this a dream?” or something. “This is strange. This is something unusual.” Those techniques, within the dream, will help you then wake up. Not wake up physically in the bed but wake up within the dream and become lucid.

Debi: Saying, “Am I dreaming?” throughout the day, looking at your watch throughout the day, “Am I dreaming?” look away, look at the time, and then being more mindful. Before you go to sleep at night, don’t have any stimulants, don’t eat lots of sugar, ice cream, take a shower, do some meditation, visualize before you go to sleep, set an intention to remember your dreams or to have a lucid dream. Those are all the recipe for having those wonderful mystical experiences. Be sure to write your dreams down, that’s one thing that’s really important. Even if you don’t know what the dream means.

Young said that if you write them down, and just read them, your psyche is going to transform because there’s a deeper part of yourself that knows what it means. From your dream life, you’re bringing it into the physical world and your higher consciousness. That’s what the dream is supposed to– It’s like taking stuff that you don’t know unconsciously to bring it forward. If you bring it forward on paper and pen, it’s a ritual for you to put it into the physical world and use it.

Rob: That’s a whole other aspect of dream working and lucid dreaming that now people are starting to use it for therapeutic purposes. Let’s say somebody has a phobia in real life or in waking life, you can use a lucid dream to confront that fear and practice. Let’s say, you’re afraid of heights, in the lucid dream, being consciously aware that you are within the dream, you’re not as fearful because you know that, “I can always wake up,” or “I can fly if I fall off the high building,” or something, then you can practice overcoming that fear in a gradual and a safe environment that’s created in your mind.

All those possibilities are just the tip of the iceberg. This whole area of how can we use lucid dreaming to improve ourselves, to become more conscious, more spiritual, more aware is just stunning. We want to do, in the future, maybe some workshops, maybe some–

Debi: We’re having a dream archetypal retreat next year in Athens, Greece, where we’re going to take a trip to the ruins, we’ll see the Parthenon, we’re going to look at all the amazing– Why are you smiling?

Rob: Oh, god no [crosstalk]

Debi: We’re going to see the ruins and talk about the archetypes and all the gods, the Greek gods, and see the archetypes within them and then perhaps a lot of dream experiences and meditative experiences. If you’re interested in joining us in Athens, in October of 2019, we’re going to be doing that as well. We also deal with dreams in any of our events, our live events here in the US and Europe.

I think dreams, to me, are [unintelligible 00:18:24] say they’re the royal road to the unconscious. I think dreams to me are the direct experience of your spiritual life. I have had ideas of what being spiritual is and what I believe is unknown and unseen and faith in the divine. Working with dreams, especially with lucid dreams, you really get to see what your consciousness is made of. It’s a beautiful practice. The more you can do it, the more you’re going to be enlightened and be aware of everything around you and your power that you have to really direct your life. Again, if you can direct the dream, you can direct your life.

That’s it for today. This is such a great topic. I’m glad you decided that you would bring it up. [laughs] Remember to tune in to the rest of our shows on iTunes and on Google Play and Spotify now. We just can’t wait to see you on the next episode. This is Debi and Rob, signing out.

Rob: See you soon.

[AUDIO PODCAST] Women and Sales Mastery

If you are a business owner or entrepreneur or even jockeying for your next promotion, you know the value of mastering sales. Unfortunately, many of the sales training systems available are developed by men and do not naturally fit a woman’s style. In this episode, Rob interviews Debi about her experience in sales and how …

[AUDIO PODCAST] Is the Law of Attraction Science or Spirituality?

What is the law of attraction and is science replacing spirituality?

Have you heard of the Law of Attraction?

Maybe you tried to think positive or put together a vision board and wondered does this really work? In this episode, we explain the science behind what some people call the spiritual or universal laws and how you can apply them in your life. 53: Is the Law of Attraction – Science or Spirituality? Debi tells her story about getting the DVD, “The Secret” and how she realized she already knew this secret. Now fifteen years later everyone jumped on the law of attraction bandwagon and there are many different people teaching this content. Rob talks about the language of the law of attraction and how it comes from the New Thought movement in the early 1900’s. We discuss whether these spiritual ideas are outdated because now we understand science. We have a natural curiosity to learn about ourselves and we still have to answer the big questions including spiritual needs.

If you love to hear about science (neuroscience and quantum physics) and how spirituality fit together, you will fully enjoy this episode. Understand what is spirituality? Spirituality is not a belief, that is religion. We explain the law of karma and other spiritual ideas.

If you want to explore more, check out our new POWER OF THE GITA program that starts this month!


Debi: Episode number 53, Debi and Dr. Rob Show. This show is about that Law of Attraction that everyone talks about. Is it science or spirituality or a mixture of both? We’re going to clear the air and give you some insight on how to use those spiritual laws in a very powerful way to create the life you really want, so stay tuned. This is the Debi and Dr. Rob Show. You are in the right place if you are tired of the basic self-help and you’re ready for a higher level of teaching in neuroscience, Jungian psychology and Eastern wisdom. We offer world-class personal development and coach training for evolving women entrepreneurs to help you go to the next level of growth in success, relationships, and living your purpose, so let’s get started. Dr. Rob, episode number 53. They say it couldn’t be done.

Dr. Rob: A long time coming and it’s finally here. We’re going to talk about the Law of Attraction.
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Debi: Yes, a lot of people have asked us that, but before we begin today’s show, I wanted to just mention that if you find our podcast and the content interesting, intriguing, mind-expanding, and you think, “I would really like to learn this at a deeper level. I’d like to train in this process so that I can help others,” either add to your own coaching business or become a coach, we have good news. We have just a few spots left for our fall class for the certification of Jungian spiritual life coaches and the application deadline is October 6th. If you do not apply by October 6th, you’re going to have to wait until next year for our next class.

This is really important. If you have been thinking about doing this program and been putting it off and saying, “I’m going to wait until next year, I’m going to wait until next year,” this is the very last class that we will have as much personal coaching with Rob, because our business is expanding, because our time is limited, we are not going to as many private coaching sessions with Rob in our next class, so if you want to have the full experience of private mentorship with Rob, this is it. Of course, it’s going to be available, but it’ll be almost double what we’re charging this year. Believe me, if you can find a way, make it happen, because this is a really great deal and the last time you’ll get to have that deep connection with Rob all through the program at the price point that we have.

Dr. Rob: Yes. If you’re interested at all, sign up. At least get on a call with us and ask us about the possibility of becoming a coach.

Debi: Yes, just get a free consultation with me. All you need to do is fill out the form. You can go to jungianlifecoach.com and it’ll take you to our page about the coaching program and it starts in– It started already, but you can jump in now. The live event is in October, we have another one in March. You can jump in on this class before it gets along too far and be a part of this amazing journey. Some of our coaches already that have started have seen, even just joining the program, some amazing changes in their life already and they’re really excited for the journey and you’re going to be in the company of a great mind.

Dr. Rob: Yes, that’s an added bonus is that you get to be part of this incredible group.

Debi: If you’re enjoying this deep conversation we have in our podcast and want to be more involved and teach this to other people, help other people live bigger lives, apply today at jugianlifecoach.com. Okay, Rob, let’s get down to business, the Law of Attraction. I remember when a friend of mine, she was a client actually, she said, “Have you seen the movie The Secret?” I had done hypnotherapy and I learned this stuff a long time ago and I was like, “The Secret, oh my God, [chuckles] I’m missing out on something that I don’t know,” and I couldn’t wait. Back then you couldn’t see it online, so I had to send for the DVD and I was all excited when I got it, I couldn’t wait to put in my DVD player, that’s how long ago that movie came out.

I put it in and then they were talking about this secret, they were talking about this secret, and then all of a sudden they go, “The secret is the Law of Attraction,” and my whole body just went, “I know this already. [chuckles] This isn’t a secret.” But it’s so amazing after just understanding, that movie actually set off so many careers in self-help, personal development. The internet was just starting to become popular, so everyone jumped on the bandwagon of the Law of Attraction, there was a lot of attraction workshops and vision board workshops and everyone’s talking about visualization. One of my clients was so cute, he said, “Debi, all this stuff we’ve been working on the past year, now everyone’s going to find out about it. [chuckles] Everyone’s going to know that your thoughts [unintelligible 00:05:20] your life.” He was so worried and I’m like, “There’s plenty of abundance, don’t worry.”

Dr. Rob: That was the whole idea.

Debi: I know, but it was so funny. I was like, “The secret’s out now.”

Dr. Rob: Yes. A lot of people don’t know that that whole language of the Law of Attraction comes from a movement that, I guess, started in the early 1900 and it’s called New Thought. The New Thought schools and philosophers at that time in America were very much influenced by the Eastern gurus that were coming over at that time. There was a few. Vivekananda was coming over and then later Yogananda.

Debi: Also, Think and Grow Rich came out like in the 1920s, and Wallace Wattles wrote The Science of Getting Rich back then. There were a lot of those books that came out and teachers that started talking about potential and your mind.

Dr. Rob: Yes, an interesting history that really hasn’t been written about that much or hasn’t been popularized, but the way it reached the current age was through those ideas of New Thought and they were infused with the religious spirituality ideas, of course.

Debi: Yes, a lot of them are very Christian-based if you think about it. They quote Jesus and they quote Bible verses, so a lot of the Christian model was taken into account there.

Dr. Rob: Yes. I think in our current age, one of the big questions is do we need spirituality given that we have neuroscience now and physics and all this incredible scientific advances. Now we’re getting into artificial intelligence and robots are about to explode onto the scene, so do we need the Law of Attraction and other spiritual ideas to–

Debi: Are they outdated now because we have science?

Dr. Rob: Yes. Us as Jungians or people that study Jung, let’s say students of Jung– Jung’s idea, and he was working around the same time really, because he started in the early 1900s as well, his main idea was that it doesn’t matter how advanced we get technologically, our nature, our curiosity about life, about ourselves, those big questions that we have, they’re not going to go away just because we have a technology and we have computers and we have the Google and artificial intelligence. We still have to answer those big questions for ourselves. He says, “Your spiritual needs are not going to go away just because you have technology and science.” Because, first of all, science is not meant to answer those big questions. Science is really a way of looking at what are my senses telling me and how can I verify if that’s true and if other people are seeing the same thing as I am.

Debi: A lot of psychology is based on science, where it’s behaviorism and testing and research-

Dr. Rob: Yes.

Debi: -and what the evidence, like you said, of the senses, of witnesses, of experience tell us.

Dr. Rob: Yes.

Debi: It’s very material. It’s very physical. It’s very external.

Dr. Rob: Yes, it’s upfront on those things. It’s as we’re assuming there is a physical reality, first of all, so it’s making a big assumption and then it’s following through on that. It’s called empiricism. Empiricism simply means, “What can I see, what can I touch, what can I weigh and measure, and I’m going by that.” So, it wasn’t meant to replace spirituality.

Debi: Because spirituality is all about the unseen.

Dr. Rob: Exactly, and even the people that invented science, like Newton, most of the writings were about alchemy and very mystical things.

Debi: But, then, they took only the little piece.

Dr. Rob: Yes. I think there’s errors on both sides. The people that say, “Oh, because we have science now, we have a way of verifying things. You don’t need the–”

Debi: Religion is dead, especially.

Dr. Rob: Yes, or spirituality is superstition and old school. That’s wrong because it wasn’t meant to replace the deeper need and those bigger questions that we have. To replace it with scientific fact, man, you’re giving up the richness of being alive–

Debi: And being human, that’s– There’s things that you can’t put in words too.

Dr. Rob: Yes.

Debi: These mystical experiences that we can have that are way beyond just measurements of tools.

Dr. Rob: Yes. Then, you hear people like Dawkins and the selfish gene guy, putting down the religious people because they think, “Oh, they’re being silly or childish or superstitious.” But it’s really that they’re setting up a straw bad guy and saying, “The fundamentalists are the ones that represent religion and spirituality, and us scientists are so enlightened.”

Debi: We’ve based everything on facts and, like you said, empirical evidence.

Dr. Rob: Yes, but that’s a false argument because that’s not spirituality, that’s just a cultural manifestation, people that believe or follow certain rituals. Now, let me just finish this thought. On the other side, people that think, “Science sucks, technology sucks, let’s get back to nature and spirituality,” there is something to that, in that we need to take care of nature and the planet. It’s our home and we can’t live without it, but you can’t turn back science, you can’t turn back what we already know about technology and what we’ve created. You have to come to terms with it, you have to learn how to use it in a creative way. Both ends of the spectrum, I think, are off.

Debi: Extremist.

Dr. Rob: Yes.

Debi: Well, what I wanted to say was that I know there’s a lot- when we used to do a lot of work with love, there was a lot out there about hormones and about your brain and it triggers your brain. Helen Fisher did a lot of research on what your brain does when it’s in love, and attachment theory and all those things. Those are great, but it takes the romantic version of what love is about and the romantic version of what spirituality can be about. What really gives our life richness and meaning that’s far beyond just evidence is a beautiful thing, so what we want to do is bridge both the spirituality and science together. How do we do that? Another thing I’d like to talk about is, what is spirituality? Think about it. Is it a religion? Is it organized religion? There’s people that say, “I’m spiritual, but not religious.” [chuckles] What does that mean?

Dr. Rob: Right. It’s unfortunate that, let’s say, spirituality has become synonymous with belief. People say, “Do you believe this?” According to your beliefs, you’re categorized as Buddhist or Christian or Muslim or something. Now, the belief thing, really it’s more of a cultural expression. It means you bought into a certain idea of how the universe works and what happens to you after you die and those things. Those beliefs really go back to your culture, your experiences, what made sense to you as you were growing up and what you bought into and why you rejected, all those things. That’s not really what we mean by spirituality. Belief is not spirituality. Belief is simply part of your ego makeup that has helped you define yourself.

Debi: Personal conditioning. Basically, we’re conditioned to believe things are a certain way. We’re conditioned to believe and fear God or praise God or reject God, whatever we are– That’s our belief and that actually comes from, like you said, our social conditioning. Then, this idea of the law, like there’s spiritual laws or the laws of karma, for example. They come from, again, what is your perception? You had mentioned when we were talking earlier today about karma, a lot of people think it’s good and bad. Good karma and bad karma. This social system has turned into their own understanding, but karma is not about good and bad, it’s just cause and effect.

Dr. Rob: Just cause and effect.

Debi: Just, only, just the mind.

Dr. Rob: Really, karma is simply the sum total of your actions and thoughts and ideas that you’ve expressed in your lifetime and how that has conditioned you into what you are today.

Debi: Created like an ego that carries all that conditioning.

Dr. Rob: Absolutely. The sum total of who you are right now is your karma, basically. That’s what is meant by karma. The good and bad, I think, was part of– In the West, we were used to thinking of sin and redemption, that you’re going to get punished for your sins and you need to redeem yourself somehow by good works. It’s that idea superimposed on this more ancient idea of karma.

Debi: When we think about the Law of Attraction and we think about this conversation we’re having about religion, actually this New Thought became a religion. Then, what happened is that people didn’t tease out their own person experience with their own Christianity or their own religion that they have, and they were trying to use this other– Basically, it’s taking two religions and putting them together and trying to make a sense of it. I think there’s a lot of people that got lost in it. Then it becomes, like you said, a belief system, and it’s not really the truth.

Dr. Rob: Right. You have said also earlier that people have been using or trying to use these spiritual principles to obtain something.

Debi: Yes. It’s like, “Get the car.” That’s what was the biggest criticism about the secret is that people said, “Oh, that’s all good and fine, but it’s all about getting fancy cars and jewelry and finding a person, and very little about peace of mind.” I remember when I got caught up in it. I started my first hypnotherapy practice. I needed to make money. I was taking those spiritual laws and applying them like, “Oh, I got to visualize and manifest.” I had my money angel and using that to get material things, but then what happened is that it was never enough.

No matter how much money you make or how much success you get, it’s never enough because you’re really just creating from a materialistic place. When the money comes in, then I’ll feel good, but it’s basically using spirituality, it sounds like blasphemy. You’re using the spiritual wisdom to create material things and it’s not the point that was initially created by the Buddhists and the yogis. It’s not about acquiring material well.

Now, of course, there’s the other side, which is the spiritual people that say, “Oh, reject wealth and reject things in the world. You shouldn’t worry about love. You should just be spiritual.” Both sides, again, the extreme of science and spirituality, you also want to make sure there’s a balance there too. I think it’s going deeper in understanding, number one, who’s the one that’s creating and using these principles, and what are the principles that we should be using, and how should we look at the world. [chuckles] Just a couple of quick questions.

Dr. Rob: Recently, we were doing an interview with somebody. It was so funny because they were saying, “I’m glad you guys didn’t talk about abundance.” The way a lot of people are talking about abundance now that, “Okay, just write a $1 million check and put it in your wallet. That’s going to give you abundance somehow.” We’ve certainly grown beyond that. What has helped us understand this is what we call Jungian spiritual psychology. What is Jungian spiritual psychology? It is essentially looking at this need to understand ourselves and our deeper selves beyond the ego, beyond the persona, and to answer some of these questions that are naturally in us.

You talk to a kid and they have the right questions is, “What am I doing here? Who am I? Why is the sky blue?” Like, “What is the nature of myself and what is the nature of the world?” That’s essentially what they’re asking. That’s philosophy. Jung had this idea that if you can’t get rid of those big questions and you shouldn’t try to because it fulfills our roles as human beings, we need to understand them, not reject anything that we can’t see or measure or weigh, like the physical scientist says, but consider that as human beings, there’s more to us than our bodies and more to us than just our individual experience.

Debi: I was thinking too that if you take the Law of Attraction and say, “I’m going to create wealth,” and then you actually create wealth because it works– There’s a law, If you think positive, you’ll get stuff [chuckles] usually. It will show up for you, but you’re bringing with it all the fears around not having it. If you’re an ego, what will happen is the things you do create with this law of attraction will end up inflating your ego. We’ve seen this happen with a lot of people that have had real great success teaching the Law of Attraction, and they crashed, because they believed they were the creator, like their ego was the creator and not the divine. Basically, they ended up having the feeling they had superpowers, but their ego was taking credit for it. They hadn’t done the work understanding who they really are on a deep level and they just rushed ahead.

I always caution people that when you’re using those spiritual laws, you have to understand that you’re not the ego, and that is really the first step, or you’re going to get caught in a trap of chasing things, never feeling satisfied. If you do attract “what you want,” you’re not going to be satisfied. They’re going to be an emptiness and a feeling of, “It’s not enough and I need more.”

Dr. Rob: Well, Socrates said there’re two tragedies in life. One is that you don’t get your heart’s desire. Two is that you do get your heart’s desires. That’s what he meant is that if you do get them, but you’re still caught up in the ego. You’re not going to be satisfied and you’re going to think, “Oh, I thought these things were meant to make me happy. I got them, I have them all and I’m still not happy.” They painted themselves into a corner. The spiritual psychology is really about understanding that deeper process in us, understanding that we’re not the ego and understanding how do we do it? How do we get beyond the ego?

Debi: If we’re not the ego, who are we? Instead of just believing, like you said, in religion where you just read a book, the Bible or some other spiritual book or Think And Grow Rich, and you say, “Hey, I believe this because this person said this or this book says this.” Then you’re really back in religion, but what you want to do is have a direct experience of the truth of what is beyond your ego. That’s really the key. So, one of the ways that the ego operates is survival. Anytime you’re in fear or anytime you need something externally to feel comfortable, to feel fulfilled, to feel happy, you are basically making something outside of you more powerful than you. I call it putting it up on the pedestal.

If you try to use these laws or your spiritual work to get those things, you’re going to be very unhappy. Maybe short-term you’ll feel good, but eventually, if you don’t do the inner examination and free yourself of that attachment, that ego survival attachment, you are going to feel dissatisfied. Jim Carrey famously said, “I wish everyone would be wildly successful, famous, have model wives, drive fancy cars, have mansions, and then realize that that’s not really what makes you happy.” I’m paraphrasing him.

Dr. Rob: Yes. The spiritual psychology, then, is a way to really understand the Law of Attraction, the spiritual laws, even the teachings of the religions in the deeper sense, but understanding them from that deeper part of our psyche, not from the ego. Because it’s like I tell a lot of people, “Yes, you know all those beautiful things that you read about on Facebook and all those spiritual teachers that speak today and teach abundance and possibility. Those things are true, but you have to do your internal work first, then those principles apply.” If they don’t, you’re still on the surface, you’re still creating ego and you’re just trying to add spirituality to the ego piece, to the persona, to the mask we wear.

Debi: You see sometimes people do that. They dress differently and they have to feel like they are super spiritual and they have to talk spiritual and they have this spiritual persona and they have to speak in a quiet voice and forgive everyone and be kind. What happens is that the shadow is building up. If you build your ego on this spiritual ideal, and you’re really doing it from an ego perspective, the opposite goes in the shadow. All the anger, all the desire to do something destructive, all the power a lot of times gets thrown into the shadow and then you’re really just trying to– You’ll get upset and triggered with people, but then you feel like you can’t express your anger because you’re a spiritual person, so you see this showing up.

I remember when I first started doing spiritual work, I felt like there was a judgment of how spiritual people should be. They have to be walking on water and not make mistakes and not hurt people. We’re human and we’re messy with our own emotions and we’re messy with other people’s emotions. You just accept that. Then it’s also accepting that about ourselves is really where we start to begin to move beyond the ego. One of the things that I love about the spiritual psychology and the Jungian model is that we go to the deeper level.

We’re not just talking about concepts of spirituality, we’re actually going and having a direct experience of our spiritual nature. For me, visualization is great, but you still feel like you’re making things up, but in the dream work, it really is a profound experienced to know that there’s a deeper part of myself that is saying, “I’m helping you, Deb. I’m on your side. This is what’s happening.” Reflecting back, it’s like this wiser creative force that’s helping me live my life. We all believe in this higher power, but we don’t realize that we have access to it, direct access to our wisdom.

That’s where I feel that with Jungian work you get to go to that deeper level. It’s not just a concept, an intellectual concept of, “Oh, I have a higher self, that’s not my true self.” What most people call their true self is really a perfect ego one that they want to have, but our true self is all the messiness, it’s all the beauty and all the things we don’t like about ourselves and then all the things that we haven’t discovered about ourselves yet. That’s our true self.

Dr. Rob: Yes. Some people have asked, “Well, why should I do this? I mean, if I’m doing okay or appear to be doing okay, I’ve survived, I’ve made a good life for myself so far. Why do I need to do this deeper work?” It’s really that there’s more to us than just what’s on the surface and building an external appearance of things. Now, we need those things. We’re not saying get rid of those things or push away success and abundance and all that. We need those things to do our work in the world. Really, what the spiritual psychology does, it balances out that life that we live externally with a deeper mystical aspect of our life.

Debi: So you’re not just living on the surface.

Dr. Rob: Exactly. That balance, Jung said, is really a third element that comes into play. What happens when we get in touch with our unconscious mind is it creates a new synthesis, which he called the self, and it’s what people call the higher self. It creates a new sense of ourselves that is both this external, temporary life of cars and computers and work and all this beautiful stuff, with that internal mystical life of the soul, of the spirit. That balance is really what we’re looking for. It gives us a new sense of being in the world where it’s not just about our little ego life, but we’re connected to something bigger. To the cosmos, to the divine mind, whatever you call it. It connects us directly to that source.

Debi: You know what you just said is so powerful, because it reminds me that ultimately, the reason why we’re here is to have that experience, is to have that deeper experience of our spiritual nature. A lot of times we don’t know why were dissatisfied in life. We think, “Well, if I had a better job, or if I made more money, or if I had a kid, or got married, or if I did my TED talk, or became famous and had a bestselling book,” all these things that we try to do or achieve with the Law of Attraction, what we really– Underneath that desire is the desire for this mystical experience. We think it’s in those things and we’re mistaken, and that’s why we’re off the wrong track. If we’re thinking it’s outside of us or it’s in the future, “One day when I get those things, then I’ll have this mystical bliss in my life.”

Now, what I suggest is that we use the things that we desire, the desire to be a bestselling author, desire to have lots of money or desire to have a great partner, as a vehicle to understand our spiritual nature. We can still have those things and still use those things, but they’re in the right place. They’re not there to give us spiritual enlightenment, they’re there to help us realize that it’s already inside of us. So, we can use those projects that we have as a way to understand and open up deeper parts of ourselves.

A lot of times, I remember my life, the one thing– The times that I had the biggest transformation are when the external world stopped cooperating with me. It was like there’s a place, and we all get there, where it’s like, “Okay, the world’s not cooperating right now, I’m not getting what I wanted. I’m stuck.” It forces you to go inward because you can’t get out there anymore. When I broke my– I had my manless, jobless and homeless day, I said I had– I didn’t have a man to go to anymore, I didn’t have a job to go to anymore, I didn’t even know what my purpose was. The only thing I could do was go inward. I was not, and it was the biggest blessing.

You don’t want to get to that point in life, you trying to chase carrots with the Law of Attraction. What will happen is that when you do this work and you go inward, and you see yourself beyond the ego, when you do apply these principles, they happen really quickly. One of the things we tell our clients is that, “Be careful when you do this work because everything gets created faster, at a faster pace. If you stay in ego, you could try the Law of Attraction, it may take you a long time to create something, or you may still hit a wall because you’re still acting in ego, you’re not even having access to all your spiritual power.”

When you individuate, as Jung would call it, we end up having more access to a more broader experience of our power and then when we want abundance, it flows. When we [unintelligible 00:33:30] ready for that great relationship, it shows up. When we have a message that we want to be delivered in a bestselling book, the things, the world will tend to conspire to help us, but if we’re working from ego, it’s like we’re battling this physical world without the resources of our– [unintelligible 00:33:49] in the spiritual work, but we’re not really living a spiritual life.

Dr. Rob: Yes.

Debi: It’s a lot. It’s a big topic, right?

Dr. Rob: Yes. If you have questions on this topic or related topics, please feel free to comment–

Debi: On our Facebook group, Debi and Dr. Rob Show.

Dr. Rob: Yes. We’ll try to do some some podcasts on those topics.

Debi: Yes, I know we covered a lot today, but tying it back to spirituality and science, it’s the same thing. Materialism and spirituality, we need both. We are here not to flow on clouds and dance with unicorns on rainbows, although that would be fun in dreams. We’re here to live and have full human experience, to feel pain, to feel love, to feel passion, to feel orgasms, to feel the sadness and grief and joy and newness and the gamut of being a human being.

We don’t want to give that up for spiritual life, but we also don’t want to get so overly dependent on these human needs that we forget the spiritual life, and we don’t want to escape the humanity by just being all spiritual. We want to have that synergy, like you said. It is really important. Yes, I’d love to hear your questions about this topic. Challenge us if you disagree, and let us know how this has changed you by going to our podcast Facebook group, and we’ll see you next time on the Debi and Dr. Rob Show.

Dr. Rob: All right. Take care.

Debi: Bye.

Dr. Rob: Much love.


Debi: You’ve been listening to the Debi and Dr. Rob Show. To find out more about us, you can visit us on our website at debiandrob.com. Also, please don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes or Google Play. We’d love to see you on every show. Thank you so much for joining us and we hope you remember to believe in your biggest dreams.


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